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RE: Source...which direction to go?

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

acalex wrote:

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

I think the main question you should ask yourself in this situation is whether you prefer more boxes on display or less. and start from there.

Actually that was never a problem. I have quite a lot of space and my gf didn't complain about having more boxes around...so not an issue there.

I didn't really have space issues on mind. only aesthetics. some prefer less boxes, for some the more the better.

I prefer to have things integrated. and integrated amp and integrated player and I'm happy enough. for that reason I'd go for a streamer option. but there is nothing right now on the market that hits the right buzz words for me.

I see what you mean. I am actually the "the more boxes the better" type of guy  ROFL

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

acalex wrote:

I see what you mean. I am actually the "the more boxes the better" type of guy  ROFL

in that case I'm surprised you're not considering a pre/pair of monos as an option for your amp? ROFL

and I would definitely be going for a transport/dac option with source. with added phono stage for the TT you'll have, let me think, 6 (!) boxes. and that only if we assume components have their own power supplies. you could always go for external PSs if you wanted to. ROFL

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

acalex wrote:

I see what you mean. I am actually the "the more boxes the better" type of guy  ROFL

in that case I'm surprised you're not considering a pre/pair of monos as an option for your amp? ROFL

and I would definitely be going for a transport/dac option with source. with added phono stage for the TT you'll have, let me think, 6 (!) boxes. and that only if we assume components have their own power supplies. you could always go for external PSs if you wanted to. ROFL

How many boxes can you get from Musical Fidelity so they all match your AMS35i Wink

M1-Clic + M1-HPA + M1-ViNL

 

 

 

SBT • Wadia 151 • Aliante PF

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

paradiziac wrote:

Multibit DACs v Delta sigma DACs is the more important distinction between DACs, rather than NOS/OS. Multibit DACs are natural partners of Class A/Tubes. Purer and more natural sound. All kinds of complicated technical reasons and also many exceptions to the rule, bad sounding multibit and good sounding Delta sigma etc--so best to trust your ears--although I think it's useful to have some idea of this basic distinction.

I see I'm not the only one around here who feels fishy about DS modulation. when I read about how it works I thought about "creative accounting" all the time. just for the sake of gaining lower noise floor you get extra bits of resolution out of nowhere.

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

I see I'm not the only one around here who feels fishy about DS modulation. when I read about how it works I thought about "creative accounting" all the time. just for the sake of gaining lower noise floor you get extra bits of resolution out of nowhere.

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)?

I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion.

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

CnoEvil wrote:

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

I see I'm not the only one around here who feels fishy about DS modulation. when I read about how it works I thought about "creative accounting" all the time. just for the sake of gaining lower noise floor you get extra bits of resolution out of nowhere.

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)? I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion. BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

Hopefully in April I will start my source journey and might be able to understand this one better. I will for sure try the Akurate and Klimax against each other to understand why the Klimax costs so much more than the Akurate. Interesting times...

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

CnoEvil wrote:

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)? I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion.

he he . no sweat. I'd never took your question as an offence. did I hear one? no. but I like researching and finding out how things work. combining technical knowledge and peoples' assessments can be a very useful tool helping to go in the right direction. so far it worked for me.

however, I'd definitely would like to hear one. there's a reason why many people consider ancient Philips TDA1541 DAC chips superior to modern ones. and they are ladder type, non oversampling ones. anyway, DS convertion type DACs have one big advantage over other types; outstanding measured performance and low cost to boot too. but like I said before - creative accounting.

CnoEvil wrote:

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

I think it's not. at least that's what I think if it's going to be similar to Pathos's CDPs. they are based around some DS DAC chip. I think it'll definitely be a DS DAC since it's supposed to be handling 31 bit and 384 kHz sampling freq.

personally, I think it's quite peculiar that Pathos is using DS DAC chips knowing how they feel about negative feedback. DS conversion makes use of negative feedback. albeit in digital domain.

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

he he . no sweat. I'd never took your question as an offence. did I hear one? no. but I like researching and finding out how things work. combining technical knowledge and peoples' assessments can be a very useful tool helping to go in the right direction. so far it worked for me.

however, I'd definitely would like to hear one. there's a reason why many people consider ancient Philips TDA1541 DAC chips superior to modern ones. and they are ladder type, non oversampling ones. anyway, DS convertion type DACs have one big advantage over other types; outstanding measured performance and low cost to boot too. but like I said before - creative accounting.

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456

and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

CnoEvil wrote:

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

thanks for the tip Smile

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

CnoEvil wrote:

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

So basically Linn have a little computer in front of the DAC chip with their own custom filters tuned by their golden ears that (understandably) do a better upsampling job than those built into the WM8741 DAC chip that I believe is used in the Linn range.

Or another approach is, as one poster in the second thread suggested, upsample first if your upsampling algorithm is good enough. That makes it quite easy to use something like a PC/Mac mini and feed a suitable (filterless) DAC.

Interesting times...

 

 

 

 

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

I think it's not. at least that's what I think if it's going to be similar to Pathos's CDPs. they are based around some DS DAC chip. I think it'll definitely be a DS DAC since it's supposed to be handling 31 bit and 384 kHz sampling freq.

Good Q. Dunno about the new one, but some of the older Pathos players used Burr Brown PCM 63P -- seems to be a bit of a hybrid between the multibit/1-bit (DS) DACs.

Also, a multibit DAC can be (and was/is often) used with oversampling and can be modified to accept higher sampling frequencies.

I guess at the end of the day it's not as simple as "multibit is better than DS". But still I've found it useful knowledge. It led me to swap my "modern" DS DAC for an older TDA based one (couldn't afford the Zanden!) and I much prefer the sound.

There's so much hype around new DACs that people seem to automatically assume that a 32 bit DAC chip that upsamples to 2 million kHz is automatically better, whereas in reality it has been the change in chip manufacturing to easy/cheap to manufacture DAC chips with on-chip functions that has created the need for all these upsampling/filtering/digital reconstruction algorithms.

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

paradiziac wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

So basically Linn have a little computer in front of the DAC chip with their own custom filters tuned by their golden ears that (understandably) do a better upsampling job than those built into the WM8741 DAC chip that I believe is used in the Linn range.

Or another approach is, as one poster in the second thread suggested, upsample first if your upsampling algorithm is good enough. That makes it quite easy to use something like a PC/Mac mini and feed a suitable (filterless) DAC.

Interesting times...

 

I don't fully understand what Linn do with their DS, but for my taste, they are the ones to beat at each price bracket.....I even prefer their new Klimax DS to some very highend DCS gear, though I admit at that level, it's very subjective.

I tried an Audio Note Dac (2.1x Signature), which sounds glorius in an AN system, but it didn't sound as good as my Majik (through my system).....I think it might be a lot better through a Jadis + SF, as (surprisingly) it was a bit too forward (though highly detailed).

I was told the Black Gate Capacitors take an age to sound right (2/3 months), but I couldn't hold onto it long enough to find out (2 weeks continuous play made little difference)....it also couldn't handle 24/192, at which resolution I have a few albums.

In my case, I'm not interested in the Akurate, as the Majik is so talented; and a good step up from the Sneaky, due in no small part to the Dynamik (switch mode) power supply.

If I ever change, it will be for a Klimax DS (out of the question for the foreseeable), or something from Pathos....I wish they would come up with a Streamer, rather than their all in one solution (Musiteca), which I don't need. Their Dac will need a good transport, which will leave that too expensive.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

If you are looking at DACs up to £5k then the Weiss DAC202 is worth very serious consideration. Check the stereophile review, the measurements are amazing:  http://www.stereophile.com/content/weiss-dac202-firewire-da-converter-measurements

 

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

BenLaw wrote:

If you are looking at DACs up to £5k then the Weiss DAC202 is worth very serious consideration. Check the stereophile review, the measurements are amazing:  http://www.stereophile.com/content/weiss-dac202-firewire-da-converter-measurements

Ben, that was an interesting read.

It looks as if the Weiss is smooth and musical but at the expense of a little excitement, dynamics and bass extention....so it could be down to a matching thing ie. Good with the AMS 35i, but not so good with the Jadis (very theoretical, I know).

The other thing I found interesting, was the comment on the DCS, which is exactly why I preferred the Klimax DS vs their higher end stuff.

The comments on the Bel Canto Dac also ring true to me.....a much overlooked alternative.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Source...which direction to go?

Sorry, double post.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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