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John Duncan's picture
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RE: more 'snake oil'

steve_1979 wrote:

John Duncan wrote:

moon wrote:

max

uhuh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEPWBxpYjo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pToyPkrju1o

Moderator: john.duncan.whf at gmail dot com

Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil'

John Duncan wrote:

moon wrote:

max

uhuh

 

:oops:

 

Smile

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RE: more 'snake oil'

fr0g wrote:

 

I will be upgrading speakers in a year or 2, and I am totally confused. 

 

 

Doors always open if you want to listen to the Adam's fr0g.

Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil'

I went to my local Waitrose and not even they have snake oil for sale. Yet. 

 

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Coming to a store near you:

http://legendsofavalon.co.uk/Anna-Rivas-Snake-Oil-16oz-P833302.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=Product_Search&utm_campaign=google_base

Ahem, even the price is in keeping...

Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil'

shooter wrote:

Coming to a store near you:

http://legendsofavalon.co.uk/Anna-Rivas-Snake-Oil-16oz-P833302.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=Product_Search&utm_campaign=google_base

Ahem, even the price is in keeping...

 

Mate, for that price, it's a bargain! I mean, just look at what it can do:

"snake oil can aid you in legal matters, solving your monetary problems, and it can be used to bring suffering to ones enemies"

Reminds me of those interconnects and turntable feet I saw reviewed the other month.....

 

 

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Logically we will never get objective testing because there is a risk that the results would show that there was no discernable effect from any of the "snake oil" products and those who had said there was in the past would be exposed.  People don't go around killing geese which lay golden eggs.

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

Logically we will never get objective testing because there is a risk that the results would show that there was no discernable effect from any of the "snake oil" products and those who had said there was in the past would be exposed.  People don't go around killing geese which lay golden eggs.

Chris

 

Where can I get these golden eggs?  I could put some under my speaker stands...

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more 'snake oil'

Biggerboat wrote:

Covenanter wrote:

Logically we will never get objective testing because there is a risk that the results would show that there was no discernable effect from any of the "snake oil" products and those who had said there was in the past would be exposed.  People don't go around killing geese which lay golden eggs.

Chris

 

Where can I get these golden eggs?  I could put some under my speaker stands...

Nah. Unstable innit

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RE: more 'snake oil'

John Duncan wrote:

moon wrote:

max

uhuh

Actually, don't think so.

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Alec wrote:

John Duncan wrote:

moon wrote:

max

uhuh

Actually, don't think so.

"I'm Max..."

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Alec wrote:

John Duncan wrote:

moon wrote:

max

uhuh

Actually, don't think so.

Consider the above retracted. I was reading it all wrong.

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RE: more 'snake oil'

WHFs Big Question is very well done and produces interesting results. My own experience of sighted use of racks is that one really did make a difference with better, tighter bass and the other did nothing. The Big Question test of racks produced  differences, I have not seen that one so

 

were the differences consistent between all three subjects?

 

was there any consistency between the surface used?

 

was there any consistency betwen the price of the rack used?

 

So far, studying blind comparison tests such as the Big Question, the results have all been that it no longer matters what the product is made of or its price. People hear inconsistent differences which have no bearing on the factors they cannot see or know about.

 

To complete the testing we do need an ABX one as well. Then we can see how racks really affect SQ.

 

 

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Jonathan_E wrote:

....

A word on the Big Question. These are clearly not scientific tests, nor are they meant to be.

.....

 

 

I disagree. They are well conducted tests that produce a valuable set of results as we puzzle what makes the biggest or least contribution to sound quality.

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Dynamight wrote:

What's the point asking readers to partake in these kind of things if What Hifi? fail to try to explain why readers may have perceived differences? They never culminate in big answers!!

 

My take on this is that is because the big answer is not a very satisfactory one to many hifi buffs. I am sure I have the big answer and have all my reasoning and evidence in my blogspot, idc1966.

A brief summary is that sighted vs blind comparison vs ABX find consistent results and we can drawn conclusions from that.

 

Sighted tests find the biggest differences in SQ. They are also more consistent in terms of pricing (more expensive is better) than the other two tests. We also find that subjectively people can have huge disagreements over what does sound better. That tells us image, brand etc do influence sound quality in a real and meaningful subjective way for the listener.

 

Blind comparison tests find that SQ difference gets smaller. People are still being subjective as they are not asked to identify which is which, but what they think of each product they are listening to. We also find that price and image now have no influence and cheap often does as well as if not beats more expensive. That helps to corroborate the results found when using sighted tests. Remove information from the listener and SQ differences are less consistent and get smaller.

 

ABX testing is a test. You have to identify what you are listening to with onlu SQ to go by. Now previously reported differences either vanish completely as people cannot tell any difference or the reported differences have no bearing on what is being listened to. People report differences between the same thing, no difference between radically different things and cannot dientify their own hifi from a completely new one they have never heard. That corroborates sighted and blind compariosn testing as it shows the less other information you have, the smaller any SQ difference becomes to the point where even a perceived one is not accurate any more as it cannot identify what it is listening to.

 

We also learn from such testing what parts of the hifi chain inherantly and really do make a difference and what does not. Speakers pass ABX tests, cables do not. Bit rates pass ABX tests, transports do not. Amps some times pass ABX tests, CDPs have show signs of being distinguishable but the evidence on that is still not clear.

 

So the big answer is that SQ is also influenced by sight and product knowledge as well as the actual sound itself. SQ is ultimately subjective and so trying to quantify what product is better than another is pretty fruitless. Speakers are where you should consentrate your time and money.

 

 

 

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