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RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

As all perception is subjective, it becomes a philosophical question if a listener perceives a change whether that change is real.  It is certainly real to the listener, and ultimately that is all the listener cares about.

Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

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RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

steve_1979 wrote:

I do intend to give them another try with them placed in various different positions. One day soon...

I look forward to it, whatever the outcome is...........I have always found your assessments to be fair and BS free.  Smile

This time, refer to the website and place as directed.....and I will then have nothing to complain about.

I have to say that I appreciate this more respectful approach. 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar.

I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed.

However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

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RE: Black Ravioli

Singslinger wrote:
I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

 

 

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics,  using loudspeakers,  what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

Singslinger wrote:
I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

They are made from some exotic type of wood that I believe resonate at certain frequencies that can cancel out others which might be problematic. They look like black carrom seeds and apparently can be placed anywhere on your hifi but the dealer recommended using them on top of speakers. I found they softened the highs produced by the ribbon tweeters on my ProAc K6s. Some of my friends liked the rounding-off of the treble when the discs were in place since it gave a slightly warmer presentation but I like to hear more detail at those frequencies so I wasn't convinced that warmer was better.

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RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

jcbrum wrote:

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics, using loudspeakers, what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

JC, you are being too literal with your analysis.

The brain interprets the firing of nerve cells on the base of hairs in the cochlear as sound.  It does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

Closing your eyes when listening improves imageing as your brain loses visual cues and is free to imagine where the instruments might be on the soundstage. My system always sounds better after a glass of wine, and sounds crap when I have had  miserable journey home from work.

My point is that listening is more than just pressure waves - it is the subjective interpretation of the pressure waves that matter and that interpretation process is not constant but varies depending on a variety of parameters.

Expectation bias comes into this.  Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive.  The HiFi press love them.  Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

So when we get these heated debates about 'take it home and try it, you will tell the difference' I am quite sure that many (most?) actually hear a difference, even though the sound is completely unchanged.  Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me.  

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked?  

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RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

jcbrum wrote:

If you play a downloaded music track from solid state electronics, using loudspeakers, what other inputs do you suppose you are getting, apart from pressure waves on your eardrums ?

JC, you are being too literal with your analysis.

The brain interprets the firing of nerve cells on the base of hairs in the cochlear as sound.  It does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

Closing your eyes when listening improves imageing as your brain loses visual cues and is free to imagine where the instruments might be on the soundstage. My system always sounds better after a glass of wine, and sounds crap when I have had  miserable journey home from work.

My point is that listening is more than just pressure waves - it is the subjective interpretation of the pressure waves that matter and that interpretation process is not constant but varies depending on a variety of parameters.

Expectation bias comes into this.  Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive.  The HiFi press love them.  Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

So when we get these heated debates about 'take it home and try it, you will tell the difference' I am quite sure that many (most?) actually hear a difference, even though the sound is completely unchanged.  Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me.  

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked?  

 

Frankly, andyjm, it sounds to me as if you are deluded, or at least deluding yourself.

 

This passage in particular seems relevant . . .   (my emphases)

 

Expectation bias comes into this.  Lets say I have purchased small wooden pyramids to put under my speaker cables. I bought them in a fancy shop, from a knowledgeable (?) assistant, and they were expensive.  The HiFi press love them.  Are you surprised that I think the sound is different? It is to me - and to be clear I am not imagining it - the sound IS different to me because my brain has processed it differently.

 

In my opinion you are imagining it.

You would do just as well to save your money, not buy the silly product, but simply imagine that you had done so.  Maybe some wine, or other substance would aid this process.

 

Why anyone on this forum thinks that they are immune from this effect is beyond me. 

 

Presumably, because they don't suffer from the same delusions.

 

So here is the philosophical question - if I buy a product that makes me process the sound differently in my head and therefore I hear a change even though the sound itself is unchanged, has the product worked? 

 

No.

 

What has worked is the promotion of a false concept, in the minds of gullible people, for the purpose of financial advantage.  Most people would call that close to being dishonest.

 

That's why the ASA told them to desist.

 

JC

 

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RE: Black Ravioli

In case anyone is concerned, my comments about andyjm's psychological state of mind are to be taken solely in the context of this discussion.  I don't know him.  If he or anyone else is concerned about their susceptibility to these effects they should consult a qualified medical practicioner.  -  JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

Note to mods :  I make no derogatory assessment of andyjm here.   The essence of the discussion is whether the dubious claims for the function of these products is merely an effect created by the promotional assertions, in the minds of susceptible people.  -  JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

Singslinger wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Singslinger wrote:
I know this thread is about Black Ravioli but I'd like to share my experience with something similar. I was recently lent a set of Shoon Mook Mpingo discs by a dealer. Two of us in the shop had heard clear differences with and without the discs in place but I wasn't convinced (a set of six cost around £300) so the dealer offered a home trial. I had the discs for 3 days and 4 friends were invited to audition. All were skeptical at what appeared to be voodoo audio; yet all 4 heard clear differences when the discs were properly placed. However, here's the thing - although all agreed the sound differed, not all agreed that it was better. I too felt that different did not equate to better/improved so I returned the discs. But it was an eye-opener for me not to write off anything related to audio without listening first.

What did they do to the sound, and did you all agree in what way it was changed?

What were they made from?

They are made from some exotic type of wood that I believe resonate at certain frequencies that can cancel out others which might be problematic. They look like black carrom seeds and apparently can be placed anywhere on your hifi but the dealer recommended using them on top of speakers. I found they softened the highs produced by the ribbon tweeters on my ProAc K6s. Some of my friends liked the rounding-off of the treble when the discs were in place since it gave a slightly warmer presentation but I like to hear more detail at those frequencies so I wasn't convinced that warmer was better.

You can learn all about them here http://www.shunmook.com/text1.htm. Very funny, although I doubt it is intentional. Here is a fine example of what they have to say: "With a 5" diameter x 2.25" high body which holds three times the volume of ebony reservoir then the Ultra Diamond Resonator, this is truly the ultimate enhancement device for your electronic. The 3/8" diameter steel shank carries a half-carat natural diamond point. Each time this is tested under any electromechanical equipment the improvement leaps several letter grades for the entire Hi Fi system and brings fidelity to new heights. At present due to the difficulty of obtaining large pieces of ebony this is only produced in very limited quantities."
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RE: Black Ravioli

On re-reading through this thread, I notice that andyjm himself makes this observation . . .   (my emphasis) . . . 

 

 

It (the brain) does not do this in isolation, but incorporates input from the other senses, modified by whatever phsycological state the listener is in.

 

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

Interestingly,  when I researched 'delusion',  I found this qualifying definition . . . 

 

Furthermore, when a false belief involves a value judgment, it is only considered as a delusion if it is so extreme that it cannot be or ever can be proven true.

 

. . .  Was this not the basis of their defence, by BR, at the inquiry held before the ASA.

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

jcbrum wrote:
In case anyone is concerned, my comments about andyjm's psychological state of mind are to be taken solely in the context of this discussion.  I don't know him.  If he or anyone else is concerned about their susceptibility to these effects they should consult a qualified medical practicioner.  -  JC

No matter what my own thoughts are regarding the claims made for certain hi-fi accessories, it would be going way too far to suggest that other forum members need qualified medical assistance if they disagreed.

You have not only generalised on this point but picked out a specific forum member to call 'delusional' and advise qualifed medical assistance to. 

 

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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RE: Black Ravioli

If anyone is worried by these concepts, Chebby, I would not wish them to be discomforted, and the reassurance might be beneficial in specific cases.  -  JC

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