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RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

No.  The first group may require objective proof that something works, but that has nothing to do with being "genuinely into music and hi-fi".  If a product such as BR could be picked out in a proper blind test, I'd be happy to say it worked whether it could be measured or not.  Otherwise I'd bare in mind the fact that our perception of things isn't always reliable or accurate.  I'd be in the first group, not because I'm not into music, but because I don't like spending money on things that my mind might tell me is making a difference when the difference happens to only be in my mind.  

I agree with the last part of your statement but I'm not sure you do, given your attempt to tar people who recognise subjective opinion can be unreliable.

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RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:
.... but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it ...

There's never been any danger of anything 'literary' happening here.

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RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Well put.  

I would argue however that there is a third group who are open minded enough to try it, decide that there is a difference after listening, even when there is no measurable difference to the sound at all.

As all perception is subjective, it becomes a philosophical question if a listener perceives a change whether that change is real.  It is certainly real to the listener, and ultimately that is all the listener cares about.

So it is quite consistent for one individual to say that there is no audible difference, there to be no measureable change, and another to say it sounds better to me. Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

As an engineer, I know that there are many products which don't have a hope in hell of making a difference to the sound produced by the speakers, but if it makes the sound better for you, who am I to argue?

 

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RE: Black Ravioli

It's obviously well known that there can be measurable differences that are not audible. Does anyone know of a documented case of a proven audible difference that cannot be measured?

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RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

A forum should be for open discussion rather than ridicule (there's plenty of specialist forums for that), so its members shouldn't be stifled by those that are waiting to pounce on them if they are open enough to admit to trying something and hearing a difference. Feel free to state that you think a product is voodoo and why you think it is voodoo, but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it to make them see an end result as predicted by those rubbishing the product is wrong, and just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

No it isn't fair!  There are many music lovers like me who generally look for objective measurements and who very much doubt the smoke and mirrors stuff that is associated with hifi.  I don't love hifi though!  It's simply a means of allowing me to hear music.  I know there are people who it seems love hifi for hifi's sake and that's fine but it's not for me.

Chris

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RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

As an engineer, I know that there are many products which don't have a hope in hell of making a difference to the sound produced by the speakers, but if it makes the sound better for you, who am I to argue?

 

A voice of educated reason, perhaps ?

 

To counter the effects on the gullible, by the advertisements of quackery ?

 

 

 

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli
source:   http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/fdanj/bitstream/123456789/39387/4/fdnj04406.pdf
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RE: Black Ravioli

We are The Borg.

Lower your resistance and surrender your system, which is now redundant. Your opinion is irrelevant and your individuality will be assimilated and added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service to us. Resistance is futile.

 

The Borg Queen

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

We are The Borg.

Lower your resistance and surrender your system, which is now redundant. Your opinion is irrelevant and your individuality will be assimilated and added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service to us. Resistance is futile.

 

The Borg Queen

If I remember correctly, played by the luscious Alice Krige... :bounce: :bounce:

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RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

A forum should be for open discussion rather than ridicule (there's plenty of specialist forums for that), so its members shouldn't be stifled by those that are waiting to pounce on them if they are open enough to admit to trying something and hearing a difference. Feel free to state that you think a product is voodoo and why you think it is voodoo, but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it to make them see an end result as predicted by those rubbishing the product is wrong, and just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

 

Oh David, please do get over yourself.  This is one of the most pompous and inaccurate assessments I have come across.

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RE: Black Ravioli

Listen with your ears, don't try to measure, there is equipment for that.

It seems only those with golden ears can enjoy and love music.

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RE: Black Ravioli

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

 

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

 

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

 

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

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RE: Black Ravioli

Crumbs!

Black Ravioli must be loving all this free publicity!

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RE: Black Ravioli

steve_1979 wrote:

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of one of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

I remember, but it's not quite the whole story.

When I asked about the demo, you said the shop guy had placed the pads under the feet instead of under the chasis. If placed under the feet it has little or no effect, and I pointed this out at the time.

Here is the thread (post 4 onwards): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/this-is-the-black-ravioli-investigation-thread-it-may-be-fun?page=13

You are more prepared than most to give stuff a try, but whatever chance this has to work, it needs to be used as instructed.

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of one of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

I remember, but it's not quite the whole story.

When I asked about the demo, you said the shop guy had placed the pads under the feet instead of under the chasis. If placed under the feet it has little or no effect, and I pointed this out at the time.

Here is the thread (post 4): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/this-is-the-black-ravioli-investigation-thread-it-may-be-fun?page=13

You are more prepared than most to give stuff a try, but whatever chance this has to work, it needs to used as instructed.

 

I do intend to give them another try with them placed in various different positions. One day soon...

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5 > AVI subwoofer

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

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