Have your say & ask the experts!

Black Ravioli

151 replies [Last post]
chebby's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Jun 2008
Posts: 15319
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:
.... but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it ...

There's never been any danger of anything 'literary' happening here.

__________________

Marantz M-CR603 • Rega R3 loudspeakers • AirPlay • Apple iPad Mini • Apple iPhone 5 • Apple iMac • Apple AirPort Extreme 802.11N • Humax HDR-Fox T2 • Panasonic TX-L32D25B • Sony BDP-S390

andyjm's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2012
Posts: 562
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Well put.  

I would argue however that there is a third group who are open minded enough to try it, decide that there is a difference after listening, even when there is no measurable difference to the sound at all.

As all perception is subjective, it becomes a philosophical question if a listener perceives a change whether that change is real.  It is certainly real to the listener, and ultimately that is all the listener cares about.

So it is quite consistent for one individual to say that there is no audible difference, there to be no measureable change, and another to say it sounds better to me. Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

As an engineer, I know that there are many products which don't have a hope in hell of making a difference to the sound produced by the speakers, but if it makes the sound better for you, who am I to argue?

 

__________________

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 5884
RE: Black Ravioli

It's obviously well known that there can be measurable differences that are not audible. Does anyone know of a documented case of a proven audible difference that cannot be measured?

__________________

HiFi   /   A/V   /   Bedroom

Covenanter's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2012
Posts: 958
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

A forum should be for open discussion rather than ridicule (there's plenty of specialist forums for that), so its members shouldn't be stifled by those that are waiting to pounce on them if they are open enough to admit to trying something and hearing a difference. Feel free to state that you think a product is voodoo and why you think it is voodoo, but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it to make them see an end result as predicted by those rubbishing the product is wrong, and just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

No it isn't fair!  There are many music lovers like me who generally look for objective measurements and who very much doubt the smoke and mirrors stuff that is associated with hifi.  I don't love hifi though!  It's simply a means of allowing me to hear music.  I know there are people who it seems love hifi for hifi's sake and that's fine but it's not for me.

Chris

jcbrum's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 595
RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

As an engineer, I know that there are many products which don't have a hope in hell of making a difference to the sound produced by the speakers, but if it makes the sound better for you, who am I to argue?

 

A voice of educated reason, perhaps ?

 

To counter the effects on the gullible, by the advertisements of quackery ?

 

 

 

 

JC

jcbrum's picture
Offline
Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 595
RE: Black Ravioli

source:  http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/fdanj/bitstream/123456789/39387/4/fdnj04406.pdf

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11414
RE: Black Ravioli

We are The Borg.

Lower your resistance and surrender your system, which is now redundant. Your opinion is irrelevant and your individuality will be assimilated and added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service to us. Resistance is futile.

 

The Borg Queen

__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

Singslinger's picture
Offline
Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 657
RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

We are The Borg.

Lower your resistance and surrender your system, which is now redundant. Your opinion is irrelevant and your individuality will be assimilated and added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service to us. Resistance is futile.

 

The Borg Queen

If I remember correctly, played by the luscious Alice Krige... woohoo! woohoo!

relocated's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 963
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

A forum should be for open discussion rather than ridicule (there's plenty of specialist forums for that), so its members shouldn't be stifled by those that are waiting to pounce on them if they are open enough to admit to trying something and hearing a difference. Feel free to state that you think a product is voodoo and why you think it is voodoo, but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it to make them see an end result as predicted by those rubbishing the product is wrong, and just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

 

Oh David, please do get over yourself.  This is one of the most pompous and inaccurate assessments I have come across.

__________________

Apple Lossless - ATV3 - AVI ADM 40  also ATV3 into AVI ADM 9T [my wife's system]

and Grado SR80i

byakuya83's picture
Offline
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 260
RE: Black Ravioli

Listen with your ears, don't try to measure, there is equipment for that.

It seems only those with golden ears can enjoy and love music.

steve_1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 3537
RE: Black Ravioli

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

 

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

 

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

 

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

__________________

PC > AVI Neutron Five 2.1

Sony NWZ-A847 64GB Walkman > Westone UM3x

atticus's picture
Offline
Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Posts: 137
RE: Black Ravioli

Crumbs!

Black Ravioli must be loving all this free publicity!

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11414
RE: Black Ravioli

steve_1979 wrote:

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of one of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

I remember, but it's not quite the whole story.

When I asked about the demo, you said the shop guy had placed the pads under the feet instead of under the chasis. If placed under the feet it has little or no effect, and I pointed this out at the time.

Here is the thread (post 4 onwards): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/this-is-the-black-ravioli-investigat...

You are more prepared than most to give stuff a try, but whatever chance this has to work, it needs to be used as instructed.

 

__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

steve_1979's picture
Offline
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 3537
RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

Just my 2 pence worth. Smile

Last year I tried Black Ravioli in a shop and couldn't hear any difference. I tried it with both solid state amplifiers and a valve amp and it made no noticable difference to the sound.

I also tried putting the amplifiers on top of one of the speakers (without any Black Ravioli) and played bassy music to maximise the vibrations being transmitred to them and even this didn't make any difference to the sound quality.

My conclusion from this experiment is that a small amount of vibration shouldn't have any effect on an amplifier. If an amplifier does sound different when it's vibrated a little bit then it should be avoided IMO.

I remember, but it's not quite the whole story.

When I asked about the demo, you said the shop guy had placed the pads under the feet instead of under the chasis. If placed under the feet it has little or no effect, and I pointed this out at the time.

Here is the thread (post 4): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/this-is-the-black-ravioli-investigat...

You are more prepared than most to give stuff a try, but whatever chance this has to work, it needs to used as instructed.

 

I do intend to give them another try with them placed in various different positions. One day soon...

__________________

PC > AVI Neutron Five 2.1

Sony NWZ-A847 64GB Walkman > Westone UM3x

DocG's picture
Offline
Joined: 1 May 2012
Posts: 913
RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

As all perception is subjective, it becomes a philosophical question if a listener perceives a change whether that change is real.  It is certainly real to the listener, and ultimately that is all the listener cares about.

Listening is done with the brain, not just the ears and is the result of many inputs, not just pressure waves on the eardrum.

+1