I've had a few demos of Meridian kit back in the day and loved it,but far too rich for me....shame. I probably shouldn't even tell you that i don't even listen in stereo just Multi channel. Always have,no matter the system/room or how exotic it is. Hence I have the Apex monitors as they really excel in this area regardless of their price even though they are being driven by £3.5k's worth of power amp. Overkill? Nah fun. Sub sat systems are my preference as I like the detail provided by sat speakers backed up by deep tight bass provided by good subs that have been EQ'd and calibrated properly.
The EQ's I mentioned are very good with music.
You will always chase the next step up, it's an addiction
Whats your seating position sub frequency response look like? Do you have it saved as a jpeg or simialr?
How does ARC setup your sub (after its internal systems has already done an EQ)?
Does it set it to a flat curve or a house curve?
My sub is set to a flat curve.
From my seating position it is flat down to below 20hz with a very slight dip at 22hz due to its location in an alcove under a shelf!!!
i have the EQ graph saved on my old laptop which I will try to dig out this week. ARC is run on a Windows programme then uploaded to the the Anthem.
As I have a Paradigm sub who also make Anthem I first EQ the sub with Paradigms Perfect Bass Kit followed by ARC. The two compliment one another. The PBK has double the number crunching power of ARC ie equivalent to the D2v.
That graph will be very interesting to see - I have been looking at your sub and reading up all about it - very nice looking with a lot of power. £££££ too
I have been tweaking my sub very recently and have come to its limitations - its fast and clean for music and films but only down to 35hz. Thats its limitation for its price/ size and power - however its a similar size box to yours with a 12" driver in it, it uses a lintwitz filter deisgn to boost low freq and is a good sub
The bit I cant fathom out with your sub is how they get down to 20hz with a 15inch speaker in such a small box and it is small - 50 x 50 x 52. Especially when you factor internal bracing, speaker construction, double amplification all taking up key internal box volume
I can only imagine the big amps have enough head room to allow them to boost the repsonse with digital EQ at all the lower frequencies. I dont get how that will work in a good sounding way?
Do you know more?
Meridian G61R, HD621, Bryston 9BSST
Optimised Audio PC - J River / JPlay / Custom Full Linear Power Supply
Panasonic 65VT65, Marantz UD7007, HIFi Racks Podium Reference
Monitor Audio GX100, GXC150, Apex A10, BK XLS400 (set with hard knee house curve)
JCAT USB and Sata, Graham Slee Spatia (SC) Graham Slee Lautus Digital / Analogue IC x 9
I don't know how they do it but they do and it does sound awesome with both movies and music.
Im going to upload a new target crossover for my centre tomorrow so will get an image of the sub graph.
The XLSS400 is a very good sub, if you do plan to upgrade take a look at the KK DXD 808 or 12012 which are seriously fantastic with music.
Also if you are near North London you are welcome to pop over and have a listen.
Anthem MRX 510(used as processor),Anthem Statement A5 power amp,MK MP150MKII's LCR,MK S150T surrounds,Paradigm Signature Sub1,Perfect Bass Kit,Sonos ZP90 ,Qnap NAS,Oppo BDP 103 Multi region,Isol-8 Cleanline2 mains conditioner,SKY+HD,Audioquest Diamondback interconnects. ATV3,iPad4,Panasonic TXP50GT60
Excellent - that will be great to see mate thanks, I am intrigued honestly. I do live near North London, I live in Rainham Essex so not far at all.
ARC seems to work the same as MRC - I can play with the filters and graphs etc away from the system on a pc so its really fast and means you can watch / listen at the same time then upload later - keeps the mrs from complaining about stuff being on the screen or fiddlign with the settings while she is watching - although she was making fun at me the other day that I prefer to sit and look at graphs than spend time with her and the baby ... lol
I have somehting for you to consider - my cousin recently hit me with a flat sub frequency response is wrong as humans hear bass at a far lesser extent the lower the bass notes. Therefore if its flat - its actually tailing off and not flat to your ears despiter what a graph shows
This I thought was cods wallop - until I looked at this
He had found an article about a hard knee house curve - I was very skeptical at first.
However I have now done it and the bass difference is extraordinary. To look at a hard knee freq response it looks as if it will be all boom and heavy - but its the opposite its lean and mean. You get perfect, smooth, even musical bass, but when its time to get down in a film it really gets down and everything has more weight to it.
I have got a flat reponse to 60hz and then rising as per his db suggestion 1db @50, 4db @ 40, approx 6db @ 35
Have a read of this
If you think about it - the above is corretc in how we hear bass - therefore having a flat freq resposne is actually having lacking bass...
Thanks that was an eye opener to read. A little too technical for me though but I think I get the just of it. Does make sense. I'm not sure if ARC is that user flexible.
Comeover and have a listen. Your opinion would be welcomed.
You can find me over on AVForums username richmagnus. You can exchange details there if your up for it. I would seriously be interested in hearing your Meridian set up and sub too.
I would recommend extreme caution regarding this. For every 3dB increase, you're doubling the power requirement, and a sub needs pretty serious power, or a very well designed amp to be tripling power into low frequencies and remaining stable. you only mention down to 35Hz - I'm assuming lower frequencies will need even more power? According to that, you've doubled, then doubled again frequencies at 35Hz! Do you have to triple, quadruple (or more) frequencies below 35Hz? Most subs just aren't going to be able to cope with the demands that boosting lower frequencies will bring.
But I'll have read when I get some time.
David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry
That is correct what you are saying if that was my method but I have done it another way - with no boost at all.
I have set the required db level @ 30/ 35hz level by increasing my sub volume - its just over half way between that and the next big notch - so about 1 oclock. The sub struggles to do 30 hz linear with the rest at my listening position. I have then worked downwards to my cross over and slightly above to 90hz. I have then after I finished altered the volume slightly to get it in for music - films I find are always right of music is right.
I have used MRC and introduced manual set filters - 9 filters to be exact up to 90 hz.to achieve my hard knee house cuvre. I cannot boost any frequencies in MRC, I wouldnt even if I could as I fear it would introduce too much decay and worsen the bass clarity.
I both love and hate REW so I have not used it as in that article - but its the explanation of the theory as to what I linked to it.
My G61R will put out a Sine Wave test tone at all bass frequencies that you cna manuall adjust up and down. I have then used that and my spl metre and then adjusted the filters in MRC to get the bass even / same level (as even as poss up and down a few db or so across the range) from 90 to 60hz
I have then increased the output by reducing/using the filters up to 50hz @ 1db and so on to 35db at his recommended levels. It follows the natural curve of my untouched bass repsonse to a certain degree anyways.
But I stress again I have not added any boost to any frequencies - only reduced them.
If you want some extra proof that having a bass curve set in this way is a good idea, especially you Rich then please help me find the indepth review I read yesterday of Anthem ARC and I am sure it was the D2 or D2V. The review shows just what ARC does to each channel and it shows how it puts an incline on the bass speaker responses and sub. Its shows resposne graphs both linear and one bar graph in green.
Does that review ring any bells I cant find it now..... argh!!
I have also added you Rich as a friedn on AVForums
This review shows it a bit - but not as good as the one I read yesterday.
This is a review for the MRX300 - look at the graphs - the bottom right of the 4 pics of graphs - the right one is the sub reponse with the green line being what arc has done post calibration
Not easy to see with that one - the other speaker graph pics - are all rising in the bass region as well
Its rising from 200hz to 20hz - as that is what the National Audio Research data suggest is psychoacoustically better to listen to and that is the data Anthem have used in ARC.
I am not so sure about rising from 200 however I would happily give it a try.
So it could well be you have a house cruve already Rich? That wa why I was so interested to see your graphs mate
Not quite sure how I missed this thread?! To try and give my 2p to the points raised over the last three pages:
1. To the OP - if I were you I would keep the McLaren amp if you haven't already decided to do so. Whilst the Pioneer recievers are great, they can't compete with a proper pro/power set-up.
2. Anthem ARC is, in my humble opinion, one of the best automated room-EQ systems available for the price level. If you are on a budget the MX-300 as a processor would be a great choice feeding into your McLaren amp. If your budget is a bit bigger, the D2v is the place to be, and you have to go considerably higher in budget to beat it. The second hand one for sale at the Home Cinema Centre is mine incidentally, I traded it in with Nick there, in order to upgrade. (Ignore my sig, the SP32 is on loan until the new processor arrives). If it counts for anything, it is in mint condition, you'd be forgiven for thinking it was brand new if you opened the box up.
A good room EQ system is essential for home cinema in my opinion - any home cinema audio processor that doesn't offer at least some manual parametric EQ isn't worth the investment. The Bryston SP3 is a classic example. In a properly treated room it'll sound amazing - but in the average domestic UK room living room its only going to fulfill a fraction of its potential because it has no EQ system.
The D2v is an amazing sounding piece of kit on its own, but once ARC is engaged its a big step up again. Then when you factor in the quality of the video processing, the D2v starts to look something of a bargain for the level of performance available.
3. Acoustic treatments are always a good idea if you can get them past SWMBO. Its always best practice to treat the room first, and then EQ second. I would recommend sourcing premade panels from RPG Europe (contact Matt there). RPG Inc, the American parent company, are pretty much the market leader in the design and manufacture of acoustic panels. The panels individually are not overly expensive also.
4. @ Ellisdj - You have the right idea creating a slight hump in your bass reponse to create a house curve. Physcoacoutics have proven that human aural perception favours so called house curves rather than a perfectly flat frequency response as it closer mimics the sound we hear naturally in the outside world. House curves typically have a slight hump in the bass region before a gradual roll off of the bass, and also a gradual roll off of the high frequencies from around 10kHz. That said, the setting you are using are overcooking it TBH. The bass hump shouldn't really need to be much more than about 3-4dB above your reference level.
Also, if I am understanding correctly, you are calibrating your sub to reference at 35Hz (i.e. 75dB using a SPL meter I assume?), and then bringing the sub level down below that point as you increase in frequency - is that correct? This is the wrong way around to do it, as you are effectively at less than half SPL at 60Hz (6dB lower than reference) and rather than creating a hump in your frequency response you are creating a dip.
You are correct though, Anthem's ARC does apply a house curve. I would use Paradigm' PBK to set my sub flat for the room, and then use Anthem ARC in the D2v to apply its house curve (room gain I think they refer to it as), but as I say, ARC would only ever add around 4db producing a smooth hump with its upper most point at 60Hz.
Hopefully the above is of use.
JVC X70 | Beamax 105" M-Tensioned Screen | Aerial Acoustics LR5's, CC5 and 4 x SR3's (7.2) | 2 x Paradigm Signature Sub 1's | Datasat RS20i | 3 x AB Systems 11000SE Monobloc amps + 6500SE 6-Channel amp | Oppo BDP-95 | NAD M50 | 24TB Synology 2413+| Netgear NeoTV 550 | PS3 | Darbee DVP5000 | Sonos Multi-room system
Cool. Have sent you a pm over on AVFORUMS.
Will try and look for the review.
Thanks for that. That makes it clearer for me. As I said over on AVFORUMS,if only i had the £ your D2v would have been mine. So tempted to phone Nick as I have got great deals on my sub15 and A5 from him but must resist for now. I find the MRX 300 and PBK just fine for now!!!
I have done something similar to what you suggested - its a bit more long winded. I already knew what level I had for 80hz so I knew that I needed to raise the volume on the sub to hit 6db hot of that.
I actually explained that incorrectly in my post before - its 6db @ 30 hz and 4db at 35hz. However to hit 6+ db @ 30hz with this sub I had to raise the volume too much and it didnt sound great as it introudced too bad modes that I could do nothing about - so I worked to 35 @ + 4db.
I also did a 30 / 80hz test - play 80 hz - then play 30hz and up the volume until they sound the same - thats how much increase is needed. 6 db sounded spot on
The trick to the hard knee house curve is the steep linear nature of it - a standard house curve has a bulge and that apparently causes bloom to the bass. Keeping it linear means smooth transitions and makes it leaner in the key area around the 60hz to crossover region so it doesnt mask anything else such as the mid range despite the extra volume - very clever whoever thought of it.
You are also right what you are saying about the Bryston procesor - unless thats in the right room it will sound average, however in the right room stunning. I firmly believe people dont hear differences in cables etc because they are hearing their room and not their kit in the first place.
Good example of this before my room treatment and moving my listening position off the back wall I would have said that a pc with a £150 soundcard and a certain software at the time sounded close to my Meridian MS600. Its notnear as good but I wasnt getting anything like its full potential at the time because of the room, speaker / seating placement etc, still prbably not even now.
I also know that no room EQ can fully take away the effect of the room - so even with ARC unless you have room treatment you will not hear the D2V at its best either, regardless of what they market. A first reflection will always be there - eq maybe can reduce the amplitude but its still there, dont forget there are lots of reflections especially for 5.1. Its trickery really - and its easy to do it for moves - but music reproduction I find is a lot more sensitive and difficult to get right. Not sure why that is but its always the same.
Companies like Meridian had room correction in the processors over 10 years ago and basic room correction in their dsp speakers before that. They have always pushed the benefits of digital processing and if a full frequency equalisation improved the sound I am sure they would have implemented them years ago. They actually say the opposite - its damaging to the sound above nyquist frequency approx 250hz
Right, I still don't quite follow what you are doing here. Incidentally a sub can't introduce modes, they either exist in the room or they don't, changing volume at different frequency points will simply excite those modes to a greater or lesser extent, as will moving the sub position, which should always be the first step to flatten the response naturally.
So are you calibrating to a standard 75dB reference point for the rest of the frequency range? In which case, you you running 6dB higher at 30Hz i.e. 81dB on your SPL meter?
But then you go on to say "play 80 hz - then play 30hz and up the volume until they sound the same"' which suggests the opposite, i.e. you are trying to boost a null at 30Hz to get a flat frequency response?
Sorry if Im being a bit thick here and not following what you are saying.
Not in my experience. A decent EQ should also have an effect in the time domain, and therefore shouldn't cause a 'bloom' to any boosted frequencies. ARC certainly never did in my room, though that said the modes in my room are not too severe.
Absolutely, I fully agree with you there, room treatments should be the first step in tuning the audio system, though I appreciate many shy away from it for aesthetic reasons. What treatments have you gone for in you room, it'd be good to see some pics?
As for "no room EQ can fully take away the effect of the room" you should listen to a Dirac or Trinnov based system if you haven't already, they are spectacular and they might just change your mind on that opinion.
They don't just work on frequency response, but well within the time domain and correct impulse reponse issues, as well as correct phase response and phase alignment. So they can deal with the RT60 as well as first order reflections affecting the impulse response. Granted ARC can't do these things, but Dirac Live and Trinnov are significantly higher tech systems and go a great deal further in achieving a target response in both the frequency and time domains.
Again, I disagree to an extent. The frequency limitation applies to more basic and manual parametric EQ systems, where as I'm sure you now, the largest effect of room modes exists below 250Hz. But on higher end systems, again, like Dirac Live or Trinnov, they have such a huge degree of resolution, the control they can exert on the full frequency range is quite dramatic. Even with ARC on the D2v, I had the flexibility to choose the frequency range that EQ could be applied to, and there was a definite improvement extending it to 10kHz - the sound became smoother and more liquid, and the size of the perceived soundstage certainly improved. But Dirac and Trinnov take things to a whole new level, the sort of fluidity and cohesion they can achieve through the whole frequency range is palpable, and easily A-B-able with the press of a button.
Sorry if I haven't explained things correctly - the first suggested step by the chap in the hard knee article is to measure your room ears difference in required output @ 30hz and 80hz - with a flat curve play 80hz test tone - play 30hz test tone - it will be quieter - raise the volume @ 30hz until you hear 80hz and 30 htz the same volume. Please imagine going back and fourth between the 2 test tones to test. The volume raised for them to be equal is the amount less 80hz needs to be overall in a linear fashion. I used his suggestion of 6db@ 30hz as that sounded right to me when I tested.
I have then used the test tone in my processor and created a set of filters to achieve the desired eq for my hard knee curve. In MRC it shows waterfall, freq response and impulse. As you change the filters it changes the predicted waterfall and freq response.
I have manually used these tools and an spl metre to create a linear house curve that measures the correct db when measured using the test tone and spl - there is the odd db out here and there but it tracks the suggested db very well.
Now to get 30hz 6db hotter - with things setup in this fashion I needed to turn my sub up a lot and that must have excited the modes I can't eq I.e 30hz ish and it didn't sound nice. I can maybe go back and do it again to address this somehow but I am quite happy at the mo. Sometimes you have enough of fiddling and just want to spend the time enjoying. I do want it perfect so probably will have another think over my procedure/ result so will go back to it again.
MRC is not parametric it's a notch filter based system - not sure the variation type used as I have read about a couple - but I do know Meridians stance - the same as all the big HiFi companies is room eq is not the best solution. If your experience tells you different to all them then stick to your guns, maybe newer systems work better btu I always though companie swith the buying power of B&W for example could easily buy the best system and put in their top of the range Classe kit. for example. Maybe they still will
my treatment is quite basic - home made 2inch, 1 inch air gap 4x2 panels (not all this size) first reflections both sides, rear wall and a 4" thick 2" air gap on the front wall under my tv to try and tame some speaker bass - could do with more but not allowed by the boss. A cloud on the ceiling would now I can hear hear make a difference to the sound - creating more silence around the music elements. That's the thing my RT60 is very low - however the reflection is still there off the ceiling skewing the image I should be hearing.
I will try and take a few pictures, Its not perfect room treatment but it has made a significant difference for the £120 ish it cost me to make them
Thanks to David at Frank Harvey, decided to buy the Oppo 105 and try out its capabilities as processor. Should be interesting. I'll be posting my findings here.
Chaps, with all due respect I'd suggest another thread for room acoustics. We have gone a little off-topic. Any more suggestions on DVD32r and AV32r replacements?
Oppo 105, Tag Mclaren 100*5r, Monitor Audio 20se and Gold surrounds, Samsung UE55D8000, Sky HD, Custom HTPC, Pinnacle Folio (No? Look that iron up!)
Sorry about that - I think you need to test the Oppo out and feedback - although if thats your forst home system experience of high definition sound you are likely to be very impressed regardless of the solution. Just bear that in mind.
Very interested in your thought on the player as well
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