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RE: Best Speakers

Ajani - from memory, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge 'personal preference' or 'taste' when it comes to products/sound. With many others it's basically a case of 'this product is the way it is, all others are wrong', with no mention of personal taste when it comes to sound. Applauded.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Best Speakers

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Ajani - from memory, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge 'personal preference' or 'taste' when it comes to products/sound. With many others it's basically a case of 'this product is the way it is, all others are wrong', with no mention of personal taste when it comes to sound. Applauded.

 

Are you perchance a goldfish?

I find that a very odd statement Dave.

Smile

We are indeed all different, with different tastes. Although I would also say that if true hi-fidelity is the key then an amplifier should amplify, nothing more, a digital source should convert the bits to the exact equivalent analogue and a pair of speakers should have a flat response.

Whether that is then pleasing to the ear for "you" or "me" is another thing, but it "is" Hi-Fi. Personally I prefer a slightly more bassy, trebly playback...so I equalize occaisionly.

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FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Ajani - from memory, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge 'personal preference' or 'taste' when it comes to products/sound. With many others it's basically a case of 'this product is the way it is, all others are wrong', with no mention of personal taste when it comes to sound. Applauded.

Didn't you question the validity of someone's comments in another thread because they didn't like KEF LS50's and preferred other models? I think you just stopped short of calling them a troll.

I do agree that taste and voicing of product is often overlooked in these debates.

Reading back through all the Alacrity Audio comments and disparaging remarks about the price of the tweeter, I'd suggest people don't always know the price of parts in a product but what does it matter if they perform well at their price point? When I worked for a well known Hi-Fi Chain back in the early 2000's I remember a customer needed a replacement tweeter for his KEF Reference 104/2's, the cost to us was £12. Yes that's £12 that we were charged by KEF let alone any mark up they may have put on it. The manager charged him £80 purely because he didn't want the guy to feel as though he'd been totally ripped off! We don't know the price of components in many things we own but that's probably a good thing.

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RE: Best Speakers

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Ajani - from memory, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge 'personal preference' or 'taste' when it comes to products/sound. With many others it's basically a case of 'this product is the way it is, all others are wrong', with no mention of personal taste when it comes to sound. Applauded.

Heading towards 8000 posts while trying to get this point across, and it's slipped by unnoticed...........I must be losing my touch!  Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Best Speakers

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Ajani - from memory, you're the only one who seems to acknowledge 'personal preference' or 'taste' when it comes to products/sound. With many others it's basically a case of 'this product is the way it is, all others are wrong', with no mention of personal taste when it comes to sound. Applauded.

 

With respect, your point is probably meaningful in the context of your work life, where you are mixing and matching products to create sound 'flavours' to hopefully please a punter who listens to Hifi.

Perhaps if they listen to pink noise/electronic music maybe.... as a classical musician, all I can say is that music is the art, and the equipment's role is to reproduce that art - as accurately, faithfully and as naturally as possible.  Taste or preferences don't come in to it with HiFi - it's not a musical instrument - rather it's role is to reproduce the music as faithfully as possible, and from all aspects - nothing more and nothing less.

If I chose to make a recording on a Bosendorfer, and a particular instrument at that, because of it's particular sound (there is no such thing as a generic piano sound) and your flavoured HiFi in it's reproduction efforts makes it sound like an 18th century Forte Piano what's the point of an artist going to the trouble they do in their selection of instruments for performance and recording?  Why use Stradavarious or Guanerius Violins, if your 'flavoured' Hii makes it sound like a cheap Chinese beginners instrument.  I have a friend who is a Luthier, and customers spend weeks assesing stringed instruments, and pay many, many thousands of dollars for the way an individual instrument plays and sounds - such is the dedication to their art.

With respect, some of the people in this industry who call themselves audiphiles, need to learn about basic, practical electronics, as well as music as an art form in particular.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

 

JMac

 

 

 

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Exshopguy wrote:
Didn't you question the validity of someone's comments in another thread because they didn't like KEF LS50's and preferred other models? I think you just stopped short of calling them a troll. I do agree that taste and voicing of product is often overlooked in these debates.

There was a thread about LS50's and RX2's or 1's where someone said that the Blades were easily bettered by £1k speakers. Of course, I'm going to challenge someone making remarks like that. I did say that I could understand if they just didn't like the sound of the Blades - not all speakers suit everyone, but to say they're "bettered by" is stating a fact, not a preference. In other threads, those who have said that the LS50's were a little forward sounding might prefer the R100's - a cheaper speaker that is a little more rounded and more likely to suit certain tastes. If it is neither of those, then I don't know which instance you're referring to.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Best Speakers

JMacMan wrote:
With respect, your point is probably meaningful in the context of your work life, where you are mixing and matching products to create sound 'flavours' to hopefully please a punter who listens to Hifi.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

JMac

You don't need to tell me, you need to tell the thousands of music listeners out there that they're wrong in choosing something they like the sound of and want to listen to.

Your chosen equipment - however accurate - is still going to differ to the PMC's, ATC's, M&K's, B&W's, KEF's (and all the other numerous speaker manufacturers out there that are used for mastering) that the artist/mixer has used to mix/master his/her music on, so how close do you think you're really getting?

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Best Speakers

JMacMan wrote:
With respect, some of the people in this industry who call themselves audiphiles, need to learn about basic, practical electronics, as well as music as an art form in particular.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

If that's just directed at people in the industry then you make a good point.

A good knowledge of how products work and knowledge of the kinds of music - including classical music - that different people will expect to enjoy is a good thing for those 'in this industry' to know.  I would expect a designer and manufacturer (and even shop staff) to have a working knowledge and experience of a wide range of musical types.

If it is also directed at the listeners then it's Angel unreasonable and (b) snobbery.

Enjoyment of listening to western, classical art music is as valid as someone enjoying Country & Western or Reggae or colliery bands. (Or someone who enjoys all of those.)

Expecting the customers to know how all the equipment works is also unreasonable.

p.s. Joyful classical music is just as important as 'serious classical music'.  In fact I prefer the joyful variety Smile

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RE: Best Speakers

JMacMan wrote:
With respect, your point is probably meaningful in the context of your work life, where you are mixing and matching products to create sound 'flavours' to hopefully please a punter who listens to Hifi.

Perhaps if they listen to pink noise/electronic music maybe.... as a classical musician, all I can say is that music is the art, and the equipment's role is to reproduce that art - as accurately, faithfully and as naturally as possible.  Taste or preferences don't come in to it with HiFi - it's not a musical instrument - rather it's role is to reproduce the music as faithfully as possible, and from all aspects - nothing more and nothing less.

If I chose to make a recording on a Bosendorfer, and a particular instrument at that, because of it's particular sound (there is no such thing as a generic piano sound) and your flavoured HiFi in it's reproduction efforts makes it sound like an 18th century Forte Piano what's the point of an artist going to the trouble they do in their selection of instruments for performance and recording?  Why use Stradavarious or Guanerius Violins, if your 'flavoured' Hii makes it sound like a cheap Chinese beginners instrument.  I have a friend who is a Luthier, and customers spend weeks assesing stringed instruments, and pay many, many thousands of dollars for the way an individual instrument plays and sounds - such is the dedication to their art.

With respect, some of the people in this industry who call themselves audiphiles, need to learn about basic, practical electronics, as well as music as an art form in particular.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

 

JMac

So which speakers do you have, or would recommend?
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RE: Best Speakers

altruistic.lemon wrote:
So which speakers do you have, or would recommend?

The active  B&O speakers you see in his Avatar.  (Of which I am very envious having heard them myself a few times.)

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RE: Best Speakers

chebby wrote:

JMacMan wrote:
With respect, some of the people in this industry who call themselves audiphiles, need to learn about basic, practical electronics, as well as music as an art form in particular.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

If that's just directed at people in the industry then you make a good point.

A good knowledge of how products work and knowledge of the kinds of music - including classical music - that different people will expect to enjoy is a good thing for those 'in this industry' to know.  I would expect a designer and manufacturer (and even shop staff) to have a working knowledge and experience of a wide range of musical types.

If it is also directed at the listeners then it's Angel unreasonable and (b) snobbery.

Enjoyment of listening to western, classical art music is as valid as someone enjoying Country & Western or Reggae or colliery bands. (Or someone who enjoys all of those.)

Expecting the customers to know how all the equipment works is also unreasonable.

 

 

My point is directed soley at the current HiFi industries current and predominate system building methodology, where mixing and matching separate electronic components and passive speakers at a retail/consumer level to create either a sonic flavour the potential buyer, or exisitng customer likes, as against at the very least endeavouring to come closer to the original tenet of HiFi, "the closest approach to the original sound" may well work for sounds where the original sound character is unknown, but where for classical music, and acoustic instruments, accuracy to the source is vital if the rendition is going to have any chance of sounding like the real thing.

If my post in the way I put it, left an opening for a sense of ambiguity, or to be misconstrued as somehow putting down people for their taste in music, I sincerely apologise - that was not my intention or design in the slightest.

I listen personally, to a huge variety of music - albeit predominately classical and with a penchant for classical organ - but listen to a bit of everything else except perhaps for heavy/thrash/death metal, and 12 tone atonal modernist art music.

In short, I belive that the sonic flavour is the provence of the art of the artist and his instrument; the job of the hifi is that of a reproducer - and to do so as faithfully and accurately as possible, neither adding to, or taking away.

Hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding

JMac

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RE: Best Speakers

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

JMacMan wrote:
With respect, your point is probably meaningful in the context of your work life, where you are mixing and matching products to create sound 'flavours' to hopefully please a punter who listens to Hifi.

As I say, by all means continue with your flavoured mixing and matching approach to HiFi if you wish to listen to different sonic flavours of pink noise/electronic music/rock pop etc.

For serious classical music, and classical musicians though, it's just not good enough.  End of.

JMac

You don't need to tell me, you need to tell the thousands of music listeners out there that they're wrong in choosing something they like the sound of and want to listen to.

Your chosen equipment - however accurate - is still going to differ to the PMC's, ATC's, M&K's, B&W's, KEF's (and all the other numerous speaker manufacturers out there that are used for mastering) that the artist/mixer has used to mix/master his/her music on, so how close do you think you're really getting?

 

Firstly, I'm not wishing to make a point that comes across in any way as an denigrating comment against you personally, in any way whatsoever - as that would be patently unfair, unwarranted, and well, just not nice.. However, I do feel that the current system building methodology found predominately throughout the industry of mixing and matching of kit with passive speakers, is a throw back to the 1950's DIY era, and with modern technology and production methods, arguably an outdated concept of system building in the 21st century.

PMC's, ATC's Miller & Kriesel, B&W's, KEF's etc, are all what one could call 'serious' speakers - they'll be the top models, and all designed at giving the most faithful and accurate reproduction possible, by highly qualified, tertiary trained, professionals.  

If you use a speaker that is also designed with that goal in mind in the home, or a pair of high quality headphones, you will likely get as close to the orginal performance as the limits of technology currently allow.

Speaking personally, one of those limits for classical music is 2 channel stereo arrays - I listen to a lot of M/C SACD as I find it gets me much closer to that real life 'being there' experience of the concert hall with classical music.

The other is the mix and match approach - I believe active speaker systems to be a vast improvment upon the current system buidling paradigm, where the closest approach to the original sound is the goal - the whole system is in the hands of a highly trained team of engineers - atypically a sound designer, acoustic engineer, and DSP engineer, along with electrical and production engineers.  The whole system can be tuned to give the maximum performance, coupled with the utmost of fiddle free setup and reliability, coupled with an engineering effort by experts where the closest approach to the orginal sound is the design goal.  As against which, you have an highly qualified amp designer who has to build for anything from a simple to a ridiculous load (8 to 3 ohms impedance for eg) and a speaker designer who has no idea what sort of amplifier his speakers may be teamed with.

One is then in the hand of well meaning enthusiasts, but otherwise amateurs, at a retail level trying to balance out bright speakers, with a warmish amp, and so on.

As I say, it made sense in the 1950's, but not in the 21st century, apart from providing more profit with accessories such as cables etc (active is a much more 'closed' system obviously) and arguable choice for the consumer.  Hehe, I just so want to take my Merc to a dealership, and enquire if I could improve the peformance by fitting a Toyota engine in it perhaps - or maybe a Honda or BMW engine - after all, BMW & Honda make some of the best engines going, which you'd know if you're a petrol head.  This is the equivalent we're looking at with current HiFi building methodologies, and as I say, it's a method that belongs with the baby boomers of the 1950's who created it, and with whom it will probably, and IMHO hopefully, die out.

 

JB

 

 

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RE: Best Speakers

chebby wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:
So which speakers do you have, or would recommend?

The active  B&O speakers you see in his Avatar.  (Of which I am very envious having heard them myself a few times.)

Aah, I thought they were thermos coffee pots.

B&O are great, but they're way beyond my reach. I'll stick with the maggies.

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RE: Best Speakers

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Overdose wrote:
Minority, majority? Who cares? It wasn't my point and I'm not sure how luck comes into this?

I have what I need for now, it's you that's looking and you need to look elsewhere. The ADMs are clearly  not for you for a number of reasons that you have stated yourself, so nothing worth worrying about is it?

It almost seems that you're bitter about the fact that you can't easily get to hear them. Just relax, there are other more accessible options for you.

Plenty more fish in the sea as they say.

Huh? Just reponding to your points, mate, that's all. You may not like them, but that's how it is, you're entitled to disagree, no need to take it personally.

Have you heard Maggies by the way? Now there's a speaker worth crossing continents for!

Maybe, but they wouldn't work in my room, so they are of no use to me.

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RE: Best Speakers

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Dynaudio Xeo3.

I see. So the only other speaker that you can compare like for like are the Xeos? I've already mentioned their similarity, but also their limitations in direct comparison.

They look nice though.

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