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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

the record spot wrote:

Sorry, but I find the hyperbole about vinyl beyond the pale.  And last time I looked, there were any number of LPs kicking around in the £1 bins and they'd been there for years, so this isn't something that's unique to CD and the only reason there aren't as many is the reduced number of record shops selling used LPs.  Pop into any charity shop and have a look at how many 20p albums are sitting there.  

Digital is as lifelike, as three dimensional, with as much presence as LP ever did.  Hey, I grew up with vinyl, it's given me my nickname on here for pete's sake, but the well over-egged pudding (with more eggs getting added it seems) about how awesomely great it is is a tad cloying in the end.  Get an attainable setup of any description, that's well designed and it'll blow you away.  Nothing to do with the format whatsoever. 

Sorry, can't agree wholeheartedly with your claim that "Digital is as lifelike, as three dimensional, with as much presence as LP ever did." Although, I totally agree with you that vinyl isn't flawless. I'm looking at CDs, in this context, as digital but even Mrs. P is the first to say that vinyl has more realism, however, since buying the Naim the gap has closed somewhat.

I'm speaking from a family that had radiograms in the early 60s, right up until the early 80s. Like any format, IMO, vinyl has its place in the fabulous arena of hi-fi/music.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

matt49 wrote:
But since the thread is titled "vinyl vs digital", people on both sides of the debate can surely have opinions of equal relevance to the thread.

That depends if they've read DM's post...

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

matt49 wrote:

I love the idea of vinyl, I’ve heard some great vinyl systems, and I have a couple of hundred LPs (which I'm reluctant to sell, though some are quite valuable). I’ve been thinking about returning to vinyl for some time now.

But for me the issue is cost. My digital “front end” cost £300: it’s a NAS drive. It goes via USB into a Devialet and Martin Logans. Based on the systems I’ve heard, I reckon that to achieve anything like the same SQ with vinyl would cost me twenty times as much as my £300 NAS.

Have I got this wrong? 

:cheers:

Matt

You might be surprised how good a Rega RP6 sounds.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

matt49 wrote:
But since the thread is titled "vinyl vs digital", people on both sides of the debate can surely have opinions of equal relevance to the thread.

That depends if they've read DM's post...

Well, I'm not sure about that.

In any case, what would you, as a well respected dealer, advise me to do? How much would I have to spend on a TT to get a better result in my system than I'm getting from streaming from my NAS. This is a genuine question: I'm not looking for a fight. I just think vinyl looks really expensive!

Matt

EDITED: crossed posts. Yes, I heard an RP6. I thought it was pretty poor. A decent SME deck sounds fine. 

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

plastic penguin wrote:

Sorry, can't agree wholeheartedly with your claim that "Digital is as lifelike, as three dimensional, with as much presence as LP ever did." Although, I totally agree with you that vinyl isn't flawless. I'm looking at CDs, in this context, as digital but even Mrs. P is the first to say that vinyl has more realism, however, since buying the Naim the gap has closed somewhat.

I'm speaking from a family that had radiograms in the early 60s, right up until the early 80s. Like any format, IMO, vinyl has its place in the fabulous arena of hi-fi/music.

 

1.  CDs are digital, in as much as they're the carrier for the digital file to be played back.

2.  LPs are nice things, but bulky in quantity, fiddly, require looking after and are a pain in the backside to move hundreds of.  They can sound excellent, but are more than equalled by digital.  Have been for years.  

3. No idea what you're listening on PP, but you're view is yours to have and to hold, but "vinyl has more realism" is just another comment that makes me wonder what on earth people are listening to their music on and how they've got it setup.  

4. I started with my parents' Dansette Viva and a Stella transistor radio.  We had radiograms up to the early 1980s too.  Sure vinyl has its place, why wouldn't it?   It's the hyperbole that unfortunately accompanies and almost deifies the format that glosses over its many shortcomings.  

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

I only ever really buy older classic albums on vinyl. Ie albums which were recorded and mastered on analogue tape. Of any, they are the albums which are most likely to wipe the floor with their corresponding digital transfers. But imo this is mainly because many early digital transfers were substandard and is not the fault of digital itself.

That problem at least should have gone away with the plethora of modern digital remasters that are captured from early-gen analogue tapes using better equipment than was around in the 80s. But the loudness war spoiled that opportunity in many instances.

With regards to more-modern music, I don't see any point buying anything on vinyl which was recorded and mastered digitally. Irrespective of whether you believe digital recordings lose something compared to tape, I can't see where there's anything to be gained from playing them from an LP which is three-or-more generations removed from the digital master.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

I've had a Project Debut record player for several years but only used it a few times.

I've potentially got 100+ records if I want them, including about 30 James Last, but can't be bothered with the rigmarole of maintaining the records & swapping the record over half way. Also storage space is an issue. Many of the records are scratched. Then to get the sound quality I know the records have the potential of, I would need to get a much better record player.

I like the idea of vinyl & have a friend with a good system including a record player so I know how good vinyl can sound.

I'm taking the vinyl to a charity shop and selling the record player.

Hopefully I'm making the right choice!

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

matt49 wrote:
In any case, what would you, as a well respected dealer, advise me to do? How much would I have to spend on a TT to get a better result in my system than I'm getting from streaming from my NAS. This is a genuine question: I'm not looking for a fight. I just think vinyl looks really expensive!
If vinyl had increased in price in line with inflation, I'm sure they'd be much more than they are now. Most new vinyl is between £9 and £30, depending on whether it is a single or double (sometimes triple), whether it is remastered or not, or whether it is a collector's piece (coloured or special package vinyl). 

Quote:
EDITED: crossed posts. Yes, I heard an RP6. I thought it was pretty poor. A decent SME deck sounds fine.
Well, we all have our expectations and requirements. Although, an RP6 is far from poor, so whether there was something wrong with the system you heard, I don't know. Personally, I like the Michell Gyro SE (preferably with an SME arm), whereas others might feel that a Rega RP1 or Project Genie sounds amazing. 

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

the record spot wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

Sorry, can't agree wholeheartedly with your claim that "Digital is as lifelike, as three dimensional, with as much presence as LP ever did." Although, I totally agree with you that vinyl isn't flawless. I'm looking at CDs, in this context, as digital but even Mrs. P is the first to say that vinyl has more realism, however, since buying the Naim the gap has closed somewhat.

I'm speaking from a family that had radiograms in the early 60s, right up until the early 80s. Like any format, IMO, vinyl has its place in the fabulous arena of hi-fi/music.

 

1.  CDs are digital, in as much as they're the carrier for the digital file to be played back.

2.  LPs are nice things, but bulky in quantity, fiddly, require looking after and are a pain in the backside to move hundreds of.  They can sound excellent, but are more than equalled by digital.  Have been for years.  

3. No idea what you're listening on PP, but you're view is yours to have and to hold, but "vinyl has more realism" is just another comment that makes me wonder what on earth people are listening to their music on and how they've got it setup.  

4. I started with my parents' Dansette Viva and a Stella transistor radio.  We had radiograms up to the early 1980s too.  Sure vinyl has its place, why wouldn't it?   It's the hyperbole that unfortunately accompanies and almost deifies the format that glosses over its many shortcomings.  

1) Yup, CDs are hard to pin down. Some say they are more digital, others go the other way.

2) Vinyl being equalled. Yup, that's what I said. Neither records or CDs are flawless. I've heard and owned some EDITED cds, mostly remastered ones. They are chronic.

3) C'mon my only system listed below, but this was the case with Arcams too.

4) If anything CDs gloss over stuff more than vinyl IMO.

I just think you're being overly harsh on vinyl. Personally I don't have any clear preference regards formats, but vinyl does offer the listener something different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what makes this interest/hobby special, isn't it?

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

matt49 wrote:
In any case, what would you, as a well respected dealer, advise me to do? How much would I have to spend on a TT to get a better result in my system than I'm getting from streaming from my NAS. This is a genuine question: I'm not looking for a fight. I just think vinyl looks really expensive!
If vinyl had increased in price in line with inflation, I'm sure they'd be much more than they are now. Most new vinyl is between £9 and £30, depending on whether it is a single or double (sometimes triple), whether it is remastered or not, or whether it is a collector's piece (coloured or special package vinyl). 

Quote:
EDITED: crossed posts. Yes, I heard an RP6. I thought it was pretty poor. A decent SME deck sounds fine.
Well, we all have our expectations and requirements. Although, an RP6 is far from poor, so whether there was something wrong with the system you heard, I don't know. Personally, I like the Michell Gyro SE (preferably with an SME arm), whereas others might feel that a Rega RP1 or Project Genie sounds amazing. 

David, my question wasn't about the media, it was about the equipment. I described my system. I want to know what I'd have to spend on a TT to get decent vinyl replay through my system. I found the RP6 very poor. A £20K SME set-up was OK. But I'm reluctant to spend this much, when I could invest it in better speakers.

:cheers:

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

plastic penguin wrote:

4) If anything CDs gloss over stuff more than vinyl IMO.

I just think you're being overly harsh on vinyl. Personally I don't have any clear preference regards formats, but vinyl does offer the listener something different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what makes this interest/hobby special, isn't it?

 

CD glosses over more stuff than vinyl?  Again, I just don't see this perspective.  None of what I hear is lesser on digital, else I wouldn't have dumped vinyl.  Not being overly harsh on vinyl at all.  My experience with vinyl goes back to the late 1960s, several hundred albums and a reasonable turntable (P3 and AT440MLa cartridge).  If anything, all those years led me to come to the conclusion I did and the 20-odd years with digital have only convinced me that the latter is comfortably up there with the former.  It was an easy choice for me and wouldn't have been if there'd be more daylight between the two.  

I'm not sure the hobby is special because vinyl offers something different.  I'd have thought that was something specific to each listener.  Not really something I am looking for in a playback system really.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD) RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Covenanter wrote:

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly, however.....nah, nevermind.

 

Did you guys who love to contribute to these endless threads ever think to yourselves, 'Why am I wasting my time typing the same old rubbish when nobody ever listens or makes any attempt to think about other perspectives or ideas?', or 'I could be listening to music instead of doing this'?

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

So far, for the albums I've compared directly on vinyl and CD on my system the score is vinyl 5, CD 0 in terms of which has sounded more realistic.

 

If I were to start comparing compilation albums, CD would probably score a few points back.

 

Eventually I might find an original album that sounds better on CD than vinyl. Candidates include albums like Eagles Desperados, where they could have cut the grooves a lot wider, instead of leaving a run-off area big enough to land Concorde on.

 

Matt49, there are a number of good sounding Japanese direct drive record players you can buy for £200 to £400 these days.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

why does it have to be Vinyl vs digital, why can't it be Vinyl *and* Digital ???? :cheers:

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Quote:

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example. 

David, don't bother this recording is appaling, so much siblance - it really is a poor example if you want to compare! Instead try Lorde - Pure Heroine, this sounds superb on vinyl I went into my local Oxfam then other and I saw nothing under £2

Michell Gyrodec, RB303, Benz Micro Ace H, Icon Audio ST40 w/KT88s, PS1 Phono, Kudos X2, Rega Apollo R, DAC

 

 

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