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CnoEvil's picture
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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

Reggie Mental wrote:

More misconceptions.A hi-fi amplifier that doesn't remove all traces of the incoming AC will hum, and if it does that it will also remove any nasties on the waveform. Theoretically RF could be radiated from the speaker or mains wires into the input stages, but the RF field would have to be strong to do that. We've all heard the noises that mobile phones make through amplifiers, that is an example.

The AC supply doesn't need to supply peaks, only the average power. Current peaks are handled by the reservor capacitors. In any case any sag will always be in the transformer, not in the mains. That is unless you use ridiculously thin and underrated wire to connect it, in which case we are talking about a safety issue.

If the earthing of a ring main isn't "optimised", whatever that means, it's dangerous. The eathing system is all about safety.  Even if it wasn't it will have zilch effect on the performance of most connected electronic equipment which tends to be double insulated these days.

I will quote some of the sparkies on here, who know better than I -

Post 9 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/earth-terminal-on-mains-sockets

Post 5 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/dedicated-spur-mains-nirvana

Check the 2 links in post 6: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/mains-re-wire

and experiences of another member here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/amazing-mains-upgrade

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Mains cable extentions

CnoEvil wrote:

I don't worry at all....and as for my imagination...........  twisted

ATM Everything is plugged directly into the wall. 

Hi CnE

Atm i am worried to hear that there is no after market mains product between the mains plugs of your components and the wall :grin:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Musicraft (Derby) - Specialist Hi-Fi, AV & Multimedia dealer

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions
Reggie Mental wrote:

More misconceptions.A hi-fi amplifier that doesn't remove all traces of the incoming AC will hum, and if it does that it will also remove any nasties on the waveform. Theoretically RF could be radiated from the speaker or mains wires into the input stages, but the RF field would have to be strong to do that. We've all heard the noises that mobile phones make through amplifiers, that is an example.

The AC supply doesn't need to supply peaks, only the average power. Current peaks are handled by the reservor capacitors. In any case any sag will always be in the transformer, not in the mains. That is unless you use ridiculously thin and underrated wire to connect it, in which case we are talking about a safety issue.

If the earthing of a ring main isn't "optimised", whatever that means, it's dangerous. The eathing system is all about safety.  Even if it wasn't it will have zilch effect on the performance of most connected electronic equipment which tends to be double insulated these days.

 

 

"I will quote some of the sparkies on here, who know better than I -

Post 9 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/earth-terminal-on-mains-sockets

Post 5 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/dedicated-spur-mains-nirvana

Check the 2 links in post 6: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/mains-re-wire

and experiences of another member here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/amazing-mains-upgrade"

 

None of those links address anything in my post.

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RE: Mains cable extentions

MUSICRAFT wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

I don't worry at all....and as for my imagination...........  twisted

ATM Everything is plugged directly into the wall. 

Hi CnE

Atm i am worried to hear that there is no after market mains product between the mains plugs of your components and the wall :grin:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I thought of you when I said that.  :grin:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

Reggie Mental wrote:

None of those links address anything in my post.

If all this was nonsense, the people that I linked to would not have heard the worthwhile improvements after the work.

If you do a quick search on whether Conditioners may strangle dynamics, you will find almost every competent brand mentions the measures they take to mitigate the problem.

If you read the comments and links about Earthing, you will see that it isn't about right or wrong, but levels of optimization, and how far you are prepared to go.

Since you have all this figured out, and are not prepared to experiment, there is little point in more fruitless debate.

:cheers:

Cno

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

CnoEvil wrote:

Reggie Mental wrote:

None of those links address anything in my post.

If all this was nonsense, the people that I linked to would not have heard the worthwhile improvements after the work.

If you do a quick search on whether Conditioners may strangle dynamics, you will find almost every competent brand mentions the measures they take to mitigate the problem.

If you read the comments and links about Earthing, you will see that it isn't about right or wrong, but levels of optimization, and how far you are prepared to go.

Since you have all this figured out, and are not prepared to experiment, there is little point in more fruitless debate.

:cheers:

Cno

Very well said Cno!!

 OPPO 105EU, Arcam AVR450, Boston Acoustics M340. Dac: Musical fedility V90. LG OLED EC930V TV

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

CnoEvil wrote:

Reggie Mental wrote:

None of those links address anything in my post.

If all this was nonsense, the people that I linked to would not have heard the worthwhile improvements after the work.

If you do a quick search on whether Conditioners may strangle dynamics, you will find almost every competent brand mentions the measures they take to mitigate the problem.

If you read the comments and links about Earthing, you will see that it isn't about right or wrong, but levels of optimization, and how far you are prepared to go.

Since you have all this figured out, and are not prepared to experiment, there is little point in more fruitless debate.

:cheers:

Cno

 

I agree, if you can't or won't understand it is pointless.

 

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

Reggie Mental wrote:

I agree, if you can't or won't understand it is pointless.

Exactly.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

So you are content with not understanding.

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

CnoEvil wrote:

Reggie Mental wrote:

None of those links address anything in my post.

If all this was nonsense, the people that I linked to would not have heard the worthwhile improvements after the work.

If you do a quick search on whether Conditioners may strangle dynamics, you will find almost every competent brand mentions the measures they take to mitigate the problem.

If you read the comments and links about Earthing, you will see that it isn't about right or wrong, but levels of optimization, and how far you are prepared to go.

Since you have all this figured out, and are not prepared to experiment, there is little point in more fruitless debate.

:cheers:

Cno

 

The key phrase here is "would not have heard".  This is a perception and should more accurately be "would not have thought they heard".  There are a group of people who post on this CB who believe that what they hear is objective truth even when that flies in the face of science.  They are unwilling to accept that their ears can deceive them and that there are well-known psychological effects that can lead to this deception.  (By ears I mean the whole hearing system including the brain.)

I'd be willing to bet that if I were to sit down with a "believer" and listen to some of these things they would hear an improvement and I wouldn't.  Who would be right?  If I accept the argument that my ears can't deceive me then there is no effect but then I'd have to accept that their ears can't deceive them and there is an effect.

The way to solve this is to undertake blind tests which cut out the psychological factors.

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

Covenanter wrote:

The key phrase here is "would not have heard".  This is a perception and should more accurately be "would not have thought they heard".  There are a group of people who post on this CB who believe that what they hear is objective truth even when that flies in the face of science.  They are unwilling to accept that their ears can deceive them and that there are well-known psychological effects that can lead to this deception.  (By ears I mean the whole hearing system including the brain.)

I'd be willing to bet that if I were to sit down with a "believer" and listen to some of these things they would hear an improvement and I wouldn't.  Who would be right?  If I accept the argument that my ears can't deceive me then there is no effect but then I'd have to accept that their ears can't deceive them and there is an effect.

The way to solve this is to undertake blind tests which cut out the psychological factors.

Chris

I know one thing for sure, you won't hear a difference if you don't try it.......at least the people involved are reporting their findings and not regurgitating the opinions of someone else.

I base my opinion on what I read (both sides of debate) and back that up with what I personally try.......I do not take an arrogant or dogmatic approach, but suggest that people should always experiment for themselves. 

I'm inclined to put more faith in those who seek to uncover the truth, than those who insist that they've found it. 

I'm now out of this

Cno

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

We know how electricity works and can readily demonstrate it. It's entirely predictable that a method of mains connection will have no effect on a hifi amplifier. It is neither exploring the unknown or a faith position as you appear to suggest. I would put your "experiments" on a par with spraying a car a different colour to see if it accelerates better.

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RE: Mains cable extentions

Surely a highly polished car accelerates faster than a dirty one because it's more slippy through the air?

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RE: Mains cable extentions

"Cno" wrote:

I'm inclined to put more faith in those who seek to uncover the truth, than those who insist that they've found it. 

Really? Surely those that have found the truth must at one time have sought to uncover it?

I've listened to stuff, I've discussed it with some of the sound engineers I've worked with in theatre, live music and TV over the last 25 years, I've read forums, technical reports and brushed up on my 'O' level physics. I think I've uncovered the truth.

There is no magic, just physics and your brain working together to give you a listening experience.

What irks me most is the thought that there are people agonising over what their next upgrade should be; often spending more money than they can really afford and still not being satisfied because of the constant niggling feeling that there is something better around the corner.

Buy the best speakers you can afford and an amp powerful enough to drive them that's built by a reputable company that will service it over the years to come, sort your listening room out and relax. If you are wealthy enough to wear designer clothes and jewellry then yes, designer hifi might be for you, it might look great in your lounge and it might impress your friends - or it might not.

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RE: Mains cable extentions RE: Mains cable extentions

Quote:

I know one thing for sure, you won't hear a difference if you don't try it.......at least the people involved are reporting their findings and not regurgitating the opinions of someone else.

I base my opinion on what I read (both sides of debate) and back that up with what I personally try.......I do not take an arrogant or dogmatic approach, but suggest that people should always experiment for themselves. 

I'm inclined to put more faith in those who seek to uncover the truth, than those who insist that they've found it. 

I'm now out of this

Cno

While I understand Cno's plight, it goes to illustrate one of the challenges of living in a world where uninformed comment is given the same weight as expert opinion.  There is no debate about mains cables by those who understand the physics behind what is going on, the only debate is created by those who don't understand or those with a financial axe to grind.

I would wager that those who are convinced that their mains cable has made a difference don't understand how a power supply works.  Those that do are rightly very skeptical about the claims made for cables and conditioners.

To be clear, there are circumstances that a mains cable could make a difference, but those are extreme and very unlikely to be found in a normal domestic setup. 

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