B&W 805S -> Sonus Faber Cremona, Sugden Masterclass AA -> Chapter Two+

Well done Pete....

I always banging on about them, great all rounder with look that will impress Stevie Wonder.  You wouldn't regret it!

ps there was a bargain pair for sale while I was on holiday I hope that is the pair you bought!

Thanks Thaiman. WIll add some comments after I get them singing and dancing.

Erm, isn't Stevie Wonder DEAD? And before that, BLIND?

p.s. Probably not, i don't think i got a great deal on them, but I just couldn't wait, knowing that i can finally afford them!

Well, the new speakers have settled in.

Generally I'm now happy, but initially I wasn't. I have to say their balance is very different from the B&Ws - the midrange being more recessed and the mid-bass very warm. After trying different positions and swapping around all the cables for every possible combination, i've got the best i can get, which is really very excellent, a big scale to music, more lifelike dimension to instruments and voices, smooth treble, but still a bit too warm/bloated in the bass, which is only usually noticable in electronic music really. It can certainly go a lot louder than the B&Ws, to party levels (and maybe beyond!), even with my relatively low-powered amp.

I'm pretty sure that the bass bloat is just that both the amp & speakers have a warm bass, and it is the combination that is causing an excess. So, for the moment i'm happy, but longer term i will want to get rid of this excess warmth by either replacing the speakers or the sugden amp

(Thaiman, what would you say your Gamut amp is like?)

Any suggestions / advice welcome!

When I demo my Sugden Pre with the matching power amp I did noticed a slight thickness in midrange and bottom end that is why I choose Gamut over the Sugden for power. 

The Cremona are gorgeous sounding pair of speakers, the best thing they do, imo, is how they projected music to you with less HiFi sound as possible therefore, as you mentioned, the different between B&W and the handsome Italian is quite vast.

Incidently the Opus 21 also has a strong midrange, to my ears, I am not saying it's bad by any mean infact it's one of the top 5 best sounding cd player I have heard!  The combination of the three may result in, what you call "excess warmth" (which I know many people would prefer this to the many highend set up's down fall... "excessively bright") 

So what would I do? (imho) I would get a new amp with a lot more power than the Sugden.  The Cremona (regardless of the sensitivity number show in the back) do need a big current drive amplification! 

The amp that seem to gel very well is Krell! but they are many better amps out there that will better it (for more cash, of course) like Balanced Audio Technology, Karan or my GamuT. 

On the other hand, as you could properbly sell your Cremona on without any loss, you may try some Living voice speakers and keep your creamy Sugden master.

welcome to the biginning of "box swapping life"

Thanks for your excellent reply Thaiman, i will check out your amp recommendations. I only hope i'm getting to the end of box-swapping so i can give it a rest for a few years!
I've read a few recommendations for Macintosh amps to go with the Sonus Fabers. Anyone ever heard one?

Hi Pete, I thought I better let you know that I had a long demo of MC gears and can confirm that the green looking boxes are such an allrounder. 

From classical to hard rock, McIntosh never miss a beat.  Ok Treble may roll off slightly when compare to the GamuT or Krell but what you are getting is liquid smooth presentation of what is going on in recording room.  Imaging is also very good you can easily place each instruments within it's wide and deep soundstage.

I love them so much I just order a CD player

Gotta love that glow-in-the-dark turntable too.........

I totally agree with Thaiman, you NEED a new amp to drive them.

He mentioned Krell, I say if you can afford it, go for it. I have a pair of Krell KMA160 mono blocks and they can drive anything but its not all about the power. Sonus Faber don't NEED the power but the more you give them the more they responed.

Another make I'd recommend which I think Thaiman left out is Mark Levinson. I can say without reservation it was the best 'sounding' amp I've ever had. Why am I not using one now? I have Apogee Caliper Sigs which are a *** to drive and although there are levinson amps out there that will drive them I can't afford them

Update on my Sonus Faber adventures... (sorry it's been a while, have been vy busy with work!)

Following some advice by Oxford Audio Consultants (thank you!), I made a huge improvement to the Sonus Faber Cremona bass, as well as detectable improvements in their general timing and coherence by buying 2 x £10 marble chopping boards from Argos + 4 squash balls. The chopping boards are under the floorstander spikes and the squash balls cut into halves that go under the chopping boards.

(p.s. Household warning - don't use marble chopping boards for chopping as they will ruin your knives)

So, now the Cremona bass is okay for almost all music (but not very good for electronic/dance music). I am still looking to upgrade the Sugden, as I would like a more detailed, tuneful bass. Also, I hope to improve the soundstaging with more power (as it hangs more around the speakers than it did with the 805s). However, I'm worried about losing the presence and fleshiness which i really love about the sugden. By presence I mean that the sound is projected well into the room (apparently with Krells it is more distant?), and by fleshiness I mean the rich tonal bloom of the midrange that sounds so great with voices and acoustic music.

Btw out of curiosity I tried swapping the sugden power amp back to the Primare A30.2 which I still have from before the Sugden (and since relegated to the 2nd system)... altho the Primare has more than twice the power rating, it sounded feeble, grey, uninvolving and MUCH less transparent in comparison. (The Primare sounds very good with the 805s and the Monitor Audio's). However, the Primare is only half the price of the Sugden Masterclass. Still, it is interesting that the power ratings sometimes mean so little.

Also I experimented with the Benchmark Dac-1 instead of the Resolution Audio Opus cd player... the bass was more detailed yet in some frequencies much more boomy; and in all other respects the sound was poor in comparison with the Resolution Audio. Of course, this is an unfair comparison, but does seem to tell me that upgrading the cd player to get better/leaner bass would not be worth it.

 

That is the same way I cure my bass boom when I have a big big pair to play with.

As for the amp you will need to spend a bit more than Primare I afraid....Krell 400Xi can be had cheaply now a day but if the fund allow then try demo GamuT, Karan or LSA amps. 

A question for Pete

I know the Opus 21 can be use as a preamp but Can you use the balanced output in a normal way?  ie connectted to preamp?  and How good is the build in DAC?

thx

Yes, I agree, definitely on the look-out for Gamut d200 - there was a MkIII going for about £1800 earlier this year. (I also saw your ad btw). Will check out the others. McIntosh may be too warm in the bass. Am also considering Plinius (but maybe not the best soundstage?), Bryston, and still Krell (probably the 2250 power amp).

Are you already moving on from the McIntosh?! Well, yes you can, there is a button you press when the cd is not in or something - it's in the manual - and you can switch between variable and fixed output. Apparently the best fixed output is via AES/DIN.

The DAC section is excellent - I tried comparing two copies of the same album, one in the Opus and the other in the Sony HD DVD recorder (a fairly average transport I'd imagine), and the difference was small. So, perhaps with a better transport... Have a look at this review tho.

After sorting out my amp/speaker synergy, I'll probably start dreaming of a DAC capable of taking HD/SACD, which is quite rare at the moment (ever heard a Delius or Elgar?)

I think there is one for sell (somewhere) for the same price of your Opus (2nd hand)!

and thx for the reply pete, good luck with the amp hunt.

BTW did you ever compare Sugden masterclass cd player against your Opus 21?

 

Alas no. I feel guilty asking for a demo when i'll just go buy second hand. I know i should keep an eye on local dealers' ex-dem/second hand kit to keep track really

I will have a chance to do just that this weekend....will let you know what I think about them.