Your last description of the 3D3s being 'washed out' and 'grey' didn't sound good. Is that not decisive for the panasonics?
HiFi / A/V / Bedroom
Strappee in theory the image after a cal should be the same whatever glasses are used to do it with. The cal will compensate for the glasses tint.
If yiu choose to use 3D3 then don't sell the pair get them updated.
Craig from TPS did actually say you could calibrate the 3D3 to counter act the effects of their firmwares i.e they would be spot on after
Then its a case of other factors - shame cant get 2 cals done one for each pair of glasses on pro1 and pro2 to compare then
Meridian G61R, HD621, Bryston 9BSST
Optimised Audio PC - J River / JPlay / Custom Full Linear Power Supply
Panasonic 65VT65, Marantz UD7007, HIFi Racks Podium Reference
Monitor Audio GX100, GXC150, Apex A10, BK XLS400 (set with hard knee house curve)
JCAT USB and Sata, Graham Slee Spatia (SC) Graham Slee Lautus Digital / Analogue IC x 9
Strapped in theory the image after a cal should be the same whatever glasses are used to do it with. The cal will compensate for the glasses tint.
I'm not sure the image after calibration would be the same. While you can compensate for the tint, you can't compensate for the dimming effects of each set of glasses. You can change the brightness level, but as you know, this won't change MLL. If I set brightness and contrast using the AVS patterns, this doesn't compensate for the slightly more washed out look I get with the 3D3s.
So any owner has to decide whether they want a slightly brighter image with less impressive MLL, or a dimmer image with better MLL. I did some testing late last night and I preferred the slightly darker, punchier image you get using the Panasonic glasses.
Unless the latest 3D3 firmware somehow compensates for the washed out look (I don't see how this would be possible), the Panasonic glasses seem to make more sense.
As you say, it's a shame I can't get two calibrations done. If I could compare the results I could make an informed decision about which is best. Who'd have though such a small decision would give me such a headache...
Hardware: Panasonic TX-P50VT65B (calibrated); Cambridge Audio Azur 651BD; Yamaha RX-A810; Teac PD-H600; PS3; B&W 601 & 600LCR (series 3); Q Acoustics QAV (rear)
Furniture and Accessories: BLOK Classix 3000 Oak AV Cabinet; Atacama Nexus 6 (atabite metal filled); 3D3 A1112
Its not washed out with the right firmware mate shows you have the wrong one because thats how it looks.
With the right firmware its all the strengths none of the weaknesses mate but i will test again later to make sure
Thanks Ellis DJ, appreciate it.
I still don't understand how firmware would affect the amount of light passing through the lenses. With the VT65, it seems an advantage if the lenses allow slightly less light through, since the TV is plenty bright enough to my eyes using either set of glasses, but MLL looks poor using the 3D3s.
The difference is huge mate, you would be surprised thedifference it makes
I think the opposite to you - the lighest lenses possible are best as that replicates not wearing - darker lensee forces you to increase contrast and brightness more and i think thats a bad thing for several reasons
Brightness us still needed on +7 on my set with the 3D3 on mate
Will report back later
It'd be great to get your thoughts on performance differences between "Sammy mode" and "Panny mode." (Using the 3D3s, does switching between these modes have any influence on MLL?) This will probably be instrumental to my decision.
Also, is there any difference in terms of MLL between the 3D3s set to "Sammy mode" and the latest Panasonic glasses? If the answer is no, this will also influence my decision. (I still don't understand how firmware could afffect the amount of light that passes through the glasses' lenses.)
The constant stream of questions is probably getting annoying, but this one has left me genuinely puzzled.
What do you mean by mll mate? You talking about luminance levels?
Yes, blacks look inky using the Panasonic glasses and a touch washed out using the 3D3s. This is beyond correction through calibration. I can set the TV to reference black through each of the glasses (using AVS patterns), but images still lose some punch when viewing through the 3D3s.
When I think about it, this makes sense. If the Panasonic glasses dim images more than the 3D3s, perceived black level through each pair of glasses will be different. Minimum luminance level is different in 3D mode and it seems the VT65 and Panasonic glasses are optimised to work together. TPS would need to change the 3D3's lenses compensate for this. I don't see how firmware would help.
Message on avf confirms what i have been saying
Still report back on the diff between the 2
Thanks mate; appeciate your help.
Craid advised that there's new firmware, though I'm still not sure what difference it makes; and I still don't see how the amount of light passing through the lenses would be any different.
First on that point - its the way the lense close that I think makes all the differene - therefore changing that makes a big difference - they probably change the level the lenses darken to in the firmware and maybe the rate of it as well.
Right my Report - testing was using Avatar (scenes viper wolves and banshee rockery) and Titanic (scene 6). initially using THX mode then my settings
I started with Avatar and the Panny 3D Glasses - I have been using the 3D3s lately and first impression putting the Pannys on was they are Horrible!
The are uncomfotable even though they are light - put the film on and my first impressions of the image was too dark, flat and blurry - to me its seemed hardly anymore 3D than the 2D image - now remember thats a dark scene and using THX Cinema is running the TV at full contrast.
Now worse than all that and its something that makes the Panny glasses ususeable in my eyes is the luminance changing / floating blacks type of effect that I get a lot the time- more promimnent in dark scenes. Its throw me off the film and its all I see so to me they are no good in this dark scene
Positives for the pannys, no cross talk
I Put the 3D3 glasses on - the image is far more 3D with proper depth and more definition -- its clearer and the glasses are far more comfortable and block out the surrounding light better
Negatives - there is a slight purple tinge to some blacks which I would love to Cal out.
Trying the 3D3 in Panasonic optimised mode - or mode 1 as its soon to be called - it was like looking through the Pannys glasses so blurry and flat but lighter but with no clairity so there is no benefit to be perceived from having a lighter image.
Trying both glasses on my settings - the 3D3 had a similar balance to the Panny Glasses on THX Mode but with all the benefits of them as glasses. The Panny Glasses on my settings (setup for the 3D3) didnt look very good at all.
I skipped onto the Banshee Rockery which is a lighter scene and changed back and fourth between the 2 glasses - it takes few seconds to get used to the pannys, because they are darker in the lenses and you know your wearing glasses, at times it feels like your wearing sunglasses.
I think the Pannys have more colour in the lighter scenes, on both settings mine and THX - but it does not always look right - sometimes it looks better sometimes worse than the 3D3 - I still prefer the 3D3 though even in the lighter secenes. So in a lighter scene the Pannys are ok but in a darker scene evcen in THX Mode which is 100% contrast and high brightness for sure I thought they crushed blacks.
Onto Titanic - some very good 3D even if it is a bit cardboard at times.
Started with the 3D3 and when Kate Winslett gets out of the car her hat proper pops out at you - there is a lot of clarity to the Image and its very 3d.
Watching the same scene in the Panny Glasses as its a very bright scene they do look more rich and colourful and there is good clairty as well. The Hat has a bit more colour but doesnt pop out at you anywhere near as much.
I dont like the Panny glasses at all, becuase they are uncomfortable to wear, you know / are conscience that your wearing them all the time and at times its like watching a film through sunglasses! Worse than that is the luminance changes and that puts the image out of focus at times and attracts the attention from the film - to me thats a big no and they are OUT.
But they have some strengths - the darker image does allow for good perceived rich colours in light scenes as good blacks do on a tv, and the image quality is very good and there is no or minimal cross talk.
The 3D3 are more comfortable, you dont know your wearing them as much as the Pannys and you never feel like your watching through sunglasses. You get pulled into the film and they are much easier on the eyes especially for long periods.
I found my settings made a big difference to how they look and they are scremaing out for a calibration.
Better than that there is a minimal amount of luminance changes to the image when wearing them - none in avatar a few in Titanic very minor.
After going back and fourth I did come to the conclusion that if they were slightly darker the colours may look richer then it dawned on me. Using them with the gamma set at 2.4 - which would allow for a very accurate 2.2 gamma calibration is the answer and I tried them with the gamma at 2.4.
Now without of the calibration of White Balance you lose too much detail but that is the way forward for sure I feel!
Another option I have just now thought of to try is using the Panel with Mid Lumiance as that might be possible with these glasses which will give a much better and more accurate image!
Running the set full contrast with the Pannys is bad in my book for the display as it gets bloody hot and thats when image retention starts.
The image is lighter in the 3D3's for sure and they take a bit of setting up but I think they have more promsie than the Pannys.
The ultimate would be no glasses so you want to try and replicate that as much as poss - so dark lenses does the opposite
This is just my opinions in a 30 minute specifically for Strapped. I think you should try and get a set with the new firmware to try before you get the set cal'd in anyway you have to. Its very imprtant and trust me changing the firmware makes a big difference.
You Cal can also be done at 2.4 gamma mate anf that will be the bomb for sure!!
Thanks v. much for the thorough feedback.
Can you avise on any difference in black level between the glasses? I could see no difference in detail between the glasses, or any difference in terms of crosstalk.
I tried a gamma 2.4 setting last night in a blacked out room and it didn't seem to have any influence on black level, unfortunately. I also tried adjusting panel luminance (all three settings, just to be sure) and this didn't bring about any improvement.
I'll have a chat with TPS tomorrow and try to figure out what, specifically, the new firmware does. I'll have chat with Jules, too, as he may have a view on what's the best way to go. I'll only be able to test the 3D3s before Wednesday if I buy another pair tomorrow. If TPS will let me return the glasses if I still prefer the Pannys, I can't really lose. I think that's the way forward...
I just watched Life of Pi - very enjoyable and good film - amazing special effects
I had a little tinker while it was on - the new firmware darkens the image down - but not too much. They must increase or decrease the shutter luminance with the firmware - not sure if thats the correct phrasing
With the Gamma on 2.4 you get a nice deep image, with better blacks but I lose detail / sharpness as its not calibrated,
On 2.2 Gamma is still very watchable and easier to see detail but its a better image on 2.4 as the blacks are better.
I am going to have to cal it now on 2.4 - it may just need a bit more brightness but a proper greyscale cal would make all the difference in the world you lucky swine.
You can probs even get away with Medium Luminance as well - I tried it and there is the possibility it would work - again that deepens and enriches the image but at the expense of clarity too much atm for me
I'll try to get the lowdown on what the new firmware actually does tomorrow.
I'm keen to see how much difference 3D calibration makes. It may even reduce the diorama effect on some 3D content. I'll let you know what I think after Wednesday.
You could try to calibrate 3D greyscale through the glasses, using some kind of makeshift attachment (getting the meter as close to the screen as possible). The worst that can happen is it looks awful, readings are all over the place, and you've lost an afternoon. In your shoes, I'd give it a go...
© 2013 Haymarket Publishing