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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

To add to the above, this prototype Panasonic uses full array local dimming and has 4K native resolution:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-studio-master-4k-lcd_TV_review

Off axis viewing still seems to be a problem, as with all LED TVS, but on axis this appears to compete with outgoing plasma models in terms of MLL.

It's also more futureproof, given the resolution, though I still have my doubts about 4K's benefits in the near future, and on anything smaller than a 55" screen.  

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

Son_of_SJ wrote:

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

I've never got the curved screen thing for TVs. Firstly, the whole of the screen of a TV is in focus. Secondly, it narrows the viewing angle, and thirdly, unless you're sitting close enough to be at the focal point of the curve, you'll get no benefit whatsoever!

Sorry David, I'm certainly with you in spirit on this one, I think that curved TVs are for people with NO FRIENDS, because the sweet spot is apparently not wide enough to accommodate even two people! However, in the context of the rest of what you say, is there a word or words missing from your second sentence, which I've put in bold? :?

 

I would disagree with you on this. When I demoed curved TVs, I walked around to extreme angles. It was only at extreme angles that there was significant distortion.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

strapped for cash wrote:

bigboss wrote:

strapped for cash wrote:

AV Forums' review doesn't make much sense to me.

A TV that reaches down to just 0.09 cd/m2 (MLL) is described as delivering "great blacks," yet last year's Sony and Samsung high end LED models managed 0.05 cd/m2. In other words, the HU8500's black level (ANSI) isn't even impressive by LED standards.

As always, the proof is in the watching rather than the numbers, but it's hard to imagine the TV producing images that don't look at least a little washed out.

Check their very next sentence:

"The Samsung includes their Smart LED local dimming feature and unsurprisingly when activated the measured black levels reduced to 0.01cd/m2 in the low and standard settings and 0cd/m2 in the high setting."

Yes, but to my knowledge, the TV uses "edge lit local dimming" rather than full array local dimming. It's not at all clear whether the 0.01 cd/m2 figure has any bearing on what happens when the TV is displaying content.

The 0 cd/m2 figure certainly doesn't, since no LED TV (even the best full array local dimming models) can do this. The only televisions to date to manage a genuine 0 cd/m2 reading are OLED models.

The ANSI figure is the one to look at. If the TV could produce 0.01 cd/m2 (or an absolute black reading of 0 cd/m2) when lit pixels are displayed, these figures should be reflected in the ANSI graphic.

I'm only giving you the rationale for AV forums' comment about "good blacks". My understanding is that Samsung uses a clever tech to produce deeper blacks which can improve picture quality.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

strapped for cash wrote:

To add to the above, this prototype Panasonic uses full array local dimming and has 4K native resolution:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-studio-master-4k-lcd_TV_review

Off axis viewing still seems to be a problem, as with all LED TVS, but on axis this appears to compete with outgoing plasma models in terms of MLL.

It's also more futureproof, given the resolution, though I still have my doubts about 4K's benefits in the near future, and on anything smaller than a 55" screen.  

 

BUT it's a Panasonic. Smile

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

bigboss wrote:

I'm only giving you the rationale for AV forums' comment about "good blacks". My understanding is that Samsung uses a clever tech to produce deeper blacks which can improve picture quality.

Though not in a way that produces particularly impressive native contrast. For a high-end model, the ANSI figures are fairly underwhelming.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

bigboss wrote:

BUT it's a Panasonic. Smile

It's not a plasma, though. Smile

And with full array local dimming, there should be no issues with backlight uniformity.

None of that excuses Panasonic's customer service history. Hopefully the TV will work properly, meaning calls to Panasonic CS won't be needed. I'm not assuming anything here. It could be a disaster in the making.

Nevertheless, of all 2014 TVs, this one has me most excited, after any OLED models LG might introduce. 

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

bigboss wrote:

Son_of_SJ wrote:

 I think that curved TVs are for people with NO FRIENDS, because the sweet spot is apparently not wide enough to accommodate even two people!

I would disagree with you on this. When I demoed curved TVs, I walked around to extreme angles. It was only at extreme angles that there was significant distortion.

Well, I wisely said "apparently" Smile , because I've not looked at a curved screen that closely, apart from briefly at John Lewis about two months ago!

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

This is what AV forums says regarding blacks:

 

"As is the Smart LED local dimming, which is the best implemented version of this feature we have seen to date, with deep blacks, excellent dynamic range and no perceivable loss of detail. This was evidenced by watching the notorious scene in the last Harry Potter movie where Lord Voldemort's army amasses over Hogworts. It can be a torture test for many local dimming systems but the Samsung didn't break a sweat."

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

strapped for cash wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BUT it's a Panasonic. Smile

It's not a plasma, though. Smile

And with full array local dimming, there should be no issues with backlight uniformity.

None of that excuses Panasonic's customer service history. Hopefully the TV will work properly, meaning calls to Panasonic CS won't be needed. I'm not assuming anything here. It could be a disaster in the making.

Nevertheless, of all 2014 TVs, this one has me most excited, after any OLED models LG might introduce. 

 

It's still in the prototype stage. Not sure when the models will come (later this year or next year if Panasonic doesn't exit TV business by then). Sony's X95 excited me the most, but they're only releasing the 85-inch version in the UK. 

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

bigboss wrote:

This is what AV forums says regarding blacks:

 

"As is the Smart LED local dimming, which is the best implemented version of this feature we have seen to date, with deep blacks, excellent dynamic range and no perceivable loss of detail. This was evidenced by watching the notorious scene in the last Harry Potter movie where Lord Voldemort's army amasses over Hogworts. It can be a torture test for many local dimming systems but the Samsung didn't break a sweat."

Sure, as I said above, the proof is in the watching, and I was only commenting on the ANSI figure.

There are two possibilities here:

1. The ANSI graphic isn't representative of what the TV can do, because the reviewer didn't engage the "local dimming" feature when taking these readings. If so, the reviewer is selling the TV short. ANSI figures should represent optimum native contrast performance. Not engaging Samsung's "edge lit local dimming" when taking ANSI readings would be like commenting on a TV's HD performance by looking at SD content. 

2. The 0.01 and 0 cd/m2 readings were taken when the TV was displaying a completely black screen. The higher ANSI figure (closer to 0.1 cd/m2) therefore reflects what the TV can do when displaying lit pixels.

I'm not sure which of these is true, since it's not clear in the review. If it's the former, the Samsung would dramatically outperform every other edge lit TV in history. This seems highly unlikely. I strongly suspect that the latter is true, and the 0.01 and 0 cd/m2 readings have no bearing on actual performance.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

bigboss wrote:

It's still in the prototype stage. Not sure when the models will come (later this year or next year if Panasonic doesn't exit TV business by then). Sony's X95 excited me the most, but they're only releasing the 85-inch version in the UK. 

Admittedly Sony seems to be regaining some of its mojo.

I still maintain that this is a bad time to buy a new TV. 4K doesn't seem a viable proposition in the UK right now, and is arguably of little-to-no benefit on anything less than a 55" screen. You're therefore paying a premium for technology with very limited utility in the near future.

OLED models are currently prohibitively priced; and only LG is pressing ahead with this tech right now because its engineers have circumnavigated the "blue diode problem."

Edge lit LED TVs will still be afflicted with problems inherent to the technology, namely poor screen uniformity, poor native contrast, and limited viewing angles.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

Why is it highly unlikely for Samsung to outperform every other LED TV is history? Isn't it Samsung's flagship model for 2014?

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

Yes, it's Samsung's flagship model; but a 0.01 cd/m2 figure (when displaying content) is so far ahead of what's been achieved with edge lighting that I'd argue it's impossible. This would put the HU8500 almost on par with the VT65 in terms of MLL, while beating every previous generation of Panasonic plasma.

Since the edge lights need to be bright enough to illuminate the entire panel, they couldn't possibly dim enough to produce such a low reading when activated. However "clever" Samsung's technology may be, its engineers can't change the laws of physics. 

It'd be like reading that a diesel powered mass produced car could go from nought to 60 in 1.2 seconds.

 

0 cd/m2 is often cited as a figure edge lit televisions can achieve when displaying a fully black screen;* but this figure is achieved by turning the panel off. Introduce a single lit pixel and the edge lighting is reactivated. MLL then rises to around 0.05 cd/m2 on even the very best edge lit televisions.

 

* And also the baseline used to calculate "dynamic contrast," which again has no bearing on a television's actual performance.

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

Son_of_SJ wrote:

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

I've never got the curved screen thing for TVs. Firstly, the whole of the screen of a TV is in focus. Secondly, it narrows the viewing angle, and thirdly, unless you're sitting close enough to be at the focal point of the curve, you'll get no benefit whatsoever!

Sorry David, I'm certainly with you in spirit on this one, I think that curved TVs are for people with NO FRIENDS, because the sweet spot is apparently not wide enough to accommodate even two people! However, in the context of the rest of what you say, is there a word or words missing from your second sentence, which I've put in bold? :?

No word missing. I just meant that with a flat TV, the whole screen is always in focus. Curved screens were introduced for projectors because you could focus the centre of the screen fine, but the outer part of the screen, particularly on larger screens, would be slightly out of focus - that benefit is lost on smaller screens.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Samsung HU8500 Curved Ultra HD 4K LED TV Review now online

Last years F9000 did much better for blacks, according to the AV forums review it had better uniformity and ansi average of 0.33. Blacks aren't everything though. 

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