Update on my situation.
Stephen from Richer sounds called me to sort out my TV issues. What a nice guy, he really knows what customer service is and I wish we could always deal with someone with his professionalism. I swapped my Samsung ES7000 TV for the new Panasonic TX-P55VT50 after much reading on the forums and reviews about how good this set was with motion judder/blur. My verdict is somewhat different though, why is the motion judder on this set worse than the Samsung? Am I missing something? I have spent a good few hours trying different settings and still cannot get the motion right. Fast panning scenes are terrible to watch, I been re-assured that motion is not an issue on these Plasma tvs, maybe I searched the wrong forums.. help..
I have turned off all the motion enhancement settings and still no luck, The best picture seems to be with the 'Cinema' picture mode.
I dont know what to do now, is my panel faulty, how can I test if its faulty without going back to the store I picked it up from?
Any suggestions would be most helpfull, All this trouble to buy a new 'Top of the range' TV, is it worth it...!
Motion judder was not present on my 42GT30....you have done the right thing by turning all the motion settings off as they are notoriously artificial and aggressive on Panasonic TVs. What exactly are you experiencing when you say motion judder?? You must bear in mind that the picture will only be as good as the source you are using so when is the problem at it's worse?
As gel was eluding to this may be where your issue lies and perhaps not with either TV.
Sony KDL46HX853, Yamaha RX-A2020, Dali Zensor 5 5.1, Panasonic DMP-BDT500MR, WD TV Live, Marantz CD6003, Marantz PM6004, Beresford TC-7220 MKII, PS3, Xbox 360, QED Silver Anniversary XT speaker cable, Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMIs, Chord Crimson Sub and RCA, Chord Superscreen Mains Cable
Thought i would post an honest opinion on my new Sony KDL46HX853 so here goes:
Out of the box it has to be said that is one good looking, stylish TV and when switched off it has that picture frame look due to the slim profile and mainly due to the Gorilla glass finish on the panel which makes it look like the TV is just one pane of black glass with no bezel...very nice.
The styling has taken some cues from last years Panasonic VT30 plasma range with some Sony additions such as the silver metal trim running around the outside of the TV and the curved edges of the TV, it's also worth noting that the back panel is metal which is unusual with LCD/LED TVs and adds to the pride of ownership factor and overall feeling of a quality build and finish.
Straight out of the box and hung on the wall the Home settings are predictably overblown but after calibration the TV settles into a really watchable picture, it's worth noting that calibration can be bit of a pain as there is no option to copy settings over to different sources like there was on my GT30...oh and no ISF modes are on this tv.
More concerning is the complete lack of any colour calibration modes, Sony still seems to be resistant to anyone messing with the factory colour settings for some reason so you are left with just colour and hue for adjustment and although the colour is not far out atall from the box just a few adjustments would make it far more accurate which leaves me slightly perplexed...surely the consumer should be free to adjust the colour more freely?
Anyway once calibrated the image displayed is pretty special with particular highlights being the clean, crisp whites which are displayed next to inky blacks and the way in which the TV handles motion, it's just effortless in action with no signs of judder or artificial processing such as halo effects etc. The detail levels from a HD source such as my Panasonic BDT500 blu ray player are exceptional with every ounce of detail revealed, the opening sequence of Star Wars episode 3 Return of the Sith on bluray is simply stunning and colours are bold without being overblown and skin tones are completely natural.
As mentioned earlier its motion that's handled so nicely with this tv with panning shots of any speed dealt with confidently and free from noise, judder and halo effects or shimmering and it rates amongst the most confident presentation i have ever seen in this respect. The blacks lose a tiny amount of detail level when compared to my previous GT30 plasma but it really is a tiny amount we are talking about and as near as i've seen to a plasma from an LED/LCD TV which is very impressive and just adds to the cinematic image the TV produces.
So it can't all be positive can it?? No, is the short answer. Throw any SD content at the tv such as SD Freeview and the TV simply doesn't like it, you get a slightly soft image that's a bit noisy and although it's far from a disaster performance with SD was better on my GT30. Detail levels seem to drop off the face of the planet which is pretty normal these days and although you can all but eliminate the noise with the myriad of features on the tv they just make a slightly blurry picture far to blurry to be enjoyable and the same is true of upscaling dvds except they suffer from far less blurring, my BDT500 bluray player was a far better upscaler than the tv.
There is a weird backlight issue present on the TV which is only visible when viewing the TVs menus, using the Game mode or when using the apps on the tv and it shows itself as two distinct patches of light eminating from the bottom corners of the screen with the left hand side by far the worse although it's only visible in low light conditions. I'm not entirely sure what's going on here but my guess is that the TV is boosting the backlight levels here because a properly calibrated picture setting shows no sign of the issue.
Unfortunatley you can't change the picture setting all the time to eliminate it so you are stuck with it but once you go to iPlayer for example and start playing something you can then change the picture setting to a calibrated preset and hey presto it's gone! Just a shame that it can't be eliminated entirely, i've now set a completely different mode up for gaming to eliminate the problem here as no matter what you do the problem is still there in either of the game modes on offer. But it must be said that it's a minor issue and doesn't affect movie or tv viewing in any way.
This is a hugely impressive TV that displays a simply excellent image with HD but doesn't much care for SD, it has a good tuner (although Freeview HD was a bit crisper on my GT30) and an excellent selection of apps on offer including iPlayer, Nexflix, 5OD, Lovefilm, BBC Sport, Youtube and of course Sonys own Entertainment Network which has it's own button on the remote. It has simply bucket loads of picture options and enough options for the tweakers out there like myself but the menus are a little awkward with some options hidden away in unusual places but the main thing is it's all there if you look hard enough and there is an i-Manual built into the tv if you get lost or can't find an option which is nice.
The TV carries a web browser although it's unfortunately Opera based and tends to throw it's toys out of the pram far too often as it struggles to cope with sites with lots of content and advertising but it's a handy tool for a quick google search for example.
3D performance with the standard BR250 IR glasses is another positive and although the glasses are quite bulky and not too comfortable over extended periods they do block out peripharal vision nicely and don't darken the image like most glasses do and the image on offer from the Avatar 3D disc is lovely. It's rich in detail and offers simply stunning depth of image that quite comfortably beats my old GT30s 3D performance, the colours remain nicely judged and black levels remain every bit as impressive as before with crosstalk a rare occurance, if it wasn't for the galsses this would be a 3D image you could quite easily watch for prolonged preiods of time. New Sony titanium 3D glasses have now arrived which should solve the issue.
To sum up then this is a highly specified TV with modern looks and brilliant build quality and contains every extra you would expect from a 2012 TV apart from the rather gimmicky voice and body controls seen on Samsung and LG TVs which isn't a bad thing imo, it's fully equiped and the performance is simply stunning in HD with the most cinematic image i've seen from an LED tv but if you live on a diet of SD content you may be better off looking elsewhere but for everyone else this is a fabulous TV despite the very slight backlight issue and i'm very happy with it.
The 46HX853 comes very highly recommended by me and is definately worth auditioning if you are after a 46inch TV this year, i can see just why it's going to be hard to beat this year in What Hi Fi and i'm proud to show it off whenever i get the chance which tells you all you need to know really. To quote Dumb and Dumber....i like it ALOT
Thanks for speedy reply Oldboy, The judder seems to happen with all content. Its less noticable when watching a blueray on my PS3. The main problem is when watching Sky HD. I recorded some Athletics from the olympics and watched this looks worse on the Panasonic than the Samsung. I will check that i havent missed any settings tonight, hopefully I have missed something...
Maybe its a good time to try a new Blueray player and new HDMI lead. Im concerned that what I am seeing is normal to most people, My wife even thinks the picture is terrible and that really tells me there may be an issue here.
What I see is: 1. if something moves quickly on the screen (camera is still), the object or persons face seems like it is moving in stages. There is a noticible judder from stage to stage rather than a smooth flowing movement. The picture doesnt stay fully focused either.
2. If the camera pans quickly from left to right without focussing on a particular moving object, lets say across some buildings, it looks like the edges of the buildings are in one spot on the screen then jump 1cm over and then another and another. This would look ok if it was 1mm or so so it looked smooth. (hope this makes sense..)
One thing I should point out is my SKYHD signal strength is not full, its about 70% of the way on one and 50% on the other. Not sure if this makes a difference either cos i still see the judder on Blueray anyway.
Would calibrating my set make it any better or is that just colour, contrast etc?
My setup is as follows:
Panasonic TX-P55VT50 television
Playstation 3 (new smaller one)
ACRyan Media Centre (2TB storage with 5000 spin speed)
Had to take the bedroom tv back to RS at MK for repair at the weekend, possible 2 week or so wait. The TV is ok when first turned on, after 1/2 hr tv is totally unresponsive to remote control, tried the other 2 remotes i have with the same result & they all work fine on the other 2 Samsung tv's i have, looks like a dodgy connection somwhere or a failing sensor. Will see what RS say & the result of repair.
Nice write up Oldboy it's a shame for me as i'm after a 46" tv for the living room.
I have only 2 choices due to size constraints, the Sonys bezel is massive & so the tv will not fit in the gap i have. So i'm left with either getting the Panasonic 42" Plasma 42GT50 or the Samsung 46" ES7000.
Enjoy Regards .. Paul
Sony Bravia 46HX853 Calibrated Settings
It does sound like it could be the TV ie that you could have a faulty one. In home cinema choice review they say they is no motion blur at all but they do say judder is still there. I noticed judder on the Vt30 on a Panasonic blu ray player but not on a Pioneer I tested with it, which is why testing blu ray players is a good route to go too. I would recommend a quality blu ray player for sure with that TV, but demo is a must. Noise they say is relatively free in the review.
Panasonic 50GT50, Pioneer Bdp-lx71, Pioneer Vsx-lx70, B&W FPM Series & B&W PV1.
Hmmm...gel may well be right here although you could consider yourself extremely unlucky to receive yet another faulty tv in this situation. What i can say for sure is that gel is absolutely right about a decent partnering BD player as when i upgraded from my old Panasonic 310 player to my new Panasonic BDT500 the difference was night and day stuff, motion was so much smoother i was shocked!!
My old 310 was not a shoddy player but the new BDT500 was a staggering improvement with my GT30 tv that eliminated any judder completely which was why i said earlier about the quality of your sources being so important, the only problem then is that ALL your sources may need an upgrade.
What you are describing does sound like judder to me and what is surprising is that it's happening on HD channels through your Sky HD box, this points to a potential issue with the tv because i found with my old GT30 that HD channels via either my Virgin box or Freeview HD virtually eliminated any instance of judder....the higher the quality of the source the less judder i would see. SD wasn't good but HD tv was smooth and bluray almost flawless so for yours to be consistent no matter the source would point to an issue and if that's the case you have been really unlucky im afraid.
You could try new leads but they probably won't be of much use here but try to borrow a few from a friend to see if it makes a difference but i highly doubt it, a new bluray player will definately help with motion but not if the tv is faulty so it's time to talk to the retailer as perhaps they may be able to try a combination of new leads and BD player etc to see if it eliminates the issue, if not then the tv is faulty.
Hope the tv issue is repaired soon and comes back working correctly. Thanks for the comments regarding the tv review, i did try to be as honest as possible flaws and all.
It's a real shame the Sony won't fit your gap as it's a truly stunning tv, imo i would not buy a Samsung ES7000 or 8000 as i tested both before i got the Sony and amongst four seperate dealers (Currys, Comet, Local dealer and Richer Sounds) i never found one example free from backlight issues so if you are serious about one of these tvs i would make sure i could return it with no hassle to protect yourself first. I have a friend with a 46ES8000 who has exactly this issue and it's across all sources no matter what the light conditions are and completely spoils an otherwise excellent tv, i've tried calibrating it for her but you simply can't get rid of it.
I know the screen size is probably the big draw to you so get the tv on approval and hopefully you will get a good example with no backlight issues, otherwise i would go for the 42GT50 or make the gap bigger one day when the other half is out for the day
Thanks guys, I did some further testing last night and unfortunately I didnt get the desired results but seemed to make progress...
I made sure all the processing options were turned off, I did notice that I still had 'pixel orbiter' turned on, when I turned this off it seemed to improve the motion. Call me crazy but it sure did make a difference. I dont really know what this option does. I have some recorded HD F1 that Im using to do some panning tests. Previously it was unwatchable, now it seems to follow the cars well and keep them in focus. I thought this was a breakthrough and was even jumping round the loungeroom like I had won the lottery!!........
then I changed over to watch live Sky HD and realized I was misled and my heart sunk..., the judder was still there, but I have to admit it looks better...
Im going to sound like a nit picker here but my SkyHD picture is quite blury or soft. It definately wasnt on my old Samsung 40'' or the Samsung UE55ES7000. Maybe this set needs to be calibrated but if I compare the picture clarity from the Samsung ES7000 (1 week ago) to the panasonic there is no comparison, the Samsung wins by a mile, is this common or how it should be, suirely not. I am expecting to see the same sharp images from Samsung sets and after listening to how people rave about the crisp picture this TV presents you would expect that. Weirdly all of these TVs have been tested on the same Sky HD source within 1 week of eachother. Im not talking about brightness but the sharpness rather. I have my sharpness set to 0, this is the sharpest for this set and to be honest if I move the slider the other way it doesnt get any better. I hear of people getting their set calibrated and notice a massive difference, might this be colour rather than sharpness, maybe Im wrong? Are plasmas not quite as sharp as LED/LCD.
I can start changing my equipment but when you see picture quality (clarity, sharpness only) work fantastic on the samsung and not the Panasonic you have to wonder why one and not the other. I agree with you about pairing, maybe the samsung was correctly paired to my SkyHD and the panasonic isnt.. Using the PlayonHD2 or the PS3 the picture is much better so you are led to believe that SkyHD is the issue here. I think further inestigation is required here...
Richer Sounds will be fed up with me by now if I ring them back and ask to return the TV, 3rd TV and still not happy. My wife if really unhappy with the Panasonic as am I, the clarity on the images is like watching standard definition TV, to be honest I would prefer to keep my old Samsung 40''.
OK so i can answer pretty much all your questions here so here goes:
Pixel Orbiter is a feature built into the tv to prevent image retention and image burn, it moves any image on the screen by minute amounts that are not perceptable by the human eye in order to prevent the build up of an image on the screen such as tv channel logos, static images, game HUDs etc that can leave a ghost image on the tv.
The comparison with your Samsung tv is not a fair one because of two factors, the tv needs some form of calibration even if it's just with a basic THX dvd such as Star Wars that carries the THX calibration tool (Disney dvds and blurays also carry it as do many other titles) but preferably with something more comprehensive. You must also bear in mind that any plasma tv needs a substantial run in period of at least 200 hours to anywhere up to 500 hours on reduced contrast and brightness for the tv to hit peek performance and as such you won't get full picture performance until you have ran the tv in properly.
If i remember correctly the sharpness is on a scale of 0-10 on the Panasonic tvs so if yours is set to 0 this will produce a soft image and needs adjusting which can be easily done with calibration, a THX calibration will sort this out quickly as there is a specific test for sharpness on it, it's straight forward and easily done with on screen instructions on what to adjust.
Calibration will adjust sharpness as well as colour, contrast, brightness etc and does make a massive difference to picture quality including sharpness. Plasmas such as your VT50 are every bit as sharp as an LCD/LED i can assure you once calibrated correctly and run in properly.
I'm not so convinced that the Sky HD box is the issue here as the image was good on your Samsung so i would be of the opinion that calibration of the VT50 is required before you can accurately pass judgement on the differences between the tvs, did you calibrate either of the Samsung TVs?? It may be the case that you are purley judging the two TVs on the settings straight out of the box with no adjustment. Of course changing the HDMI cable from the Sky box to the TV may improve the picture also.
Lastly i can very confidently state that Richer Sounds won't have a problem with you returning the TV to them as they are the best retailer i've ever encountered, i'm sure they will do all they can to help you. It may even be a good idea to take it into the store for them to test with their equipment if the results after calibration are still not what you expect form what is a top of the range premium plasma TV to see if anything in your system is at fault or if the TV is faulty.
At the end of day if you are not happy with the TV then act quickly and contact Richers for some advice, if you live near enough then pop into the store to talk it over with them, they don't bite and it's worth acting quickly whilst you still have the option to return the tv.
I really hope that's of some use to you, i know your pain oh too well as i've had many issues with TVs over the last few years and i've had my GT30 replaced by Richer Sounds for my current 46HX853 in the last week so i'm happy to help where and if i can.
Thanks for your informative replies Oldboy.
I have never calibrated a TV, All I have done is set it up to what I think looks best. I like a 'real' looking picture rather than the extra bright blown out picture you see in large appliance stores where they use 100% contrast etc for a brighter picture. I read forums of people saying their VT50 look as if they are 'looking out a window'. Mine definately doesnt i can assure you..
I think I will try download the THX calibration tool that you have suggested and see how that goes. Fingers crossed It helps...
Failing that I have arranged to go back to the Richer Sounds store on Saturday as suggested and test it on their equipment. They have Sky HD too so will find out if its the TV or not. When I spoke to Richer Sounds in Kingston they told me the picture will not be as crisp and sharp as the LED/LCD and it will be more grainy, but will handle motion better... Seems there are mixed opinions on what the picture should look like. One persons 'perfect' is anothers 'average'...
I would love to see one that is calibrated and has a 'reference' picture to see the difference. Anyone know of any shops that have this TV setup and calibrated near Kingston or in London?
You are welcome, i just hope i've been of some help.
If you have never calibrated a tv before then you have simply not got the most out of the tvs you have owned i'm afraid but don't worry as the THX calibration disc is the place to start in your situation as you won't be bombarded with tech speak and it's a painless process, you are guided through it with on screen instructions of what to do at every point and it won't take long.
You can't download the disc...it's already on a vast array of dvds and blurays and you probably already own one with it on if you have a good selection of movies at home? Go to the THX website for a list of titles that carry the tool here:
If you don't own any of these ask a friend or two and i'm sure you will be able to hunt a disc down but if not simply rent one for the evening, it will be well worth it. It's usually found within the language options on the disc menu and is labelled as the THX Optimiser, just click OK/Enter on your remote and away you go.
Bear in mind that unless the tv carries a blue screen mode then the colour section will need to be skipped as you need a pair of THX blue filter glasses in order to use this part of the calibration. I assure you it's very easy to do and explained in plain english, it takes about 15-20mins but don't forget to calibrate EVERY individual picture preset mode that you use ie cinema, normal, game etc...this will ensure that every time you watch a movie or tv etc you will have much more accurate brightness, contrast and sharpness but feel free to experiment with the colour levels to taste as you don't have the glasses.
You have done the right thing in contacting Richer Sounds and arranging to take the tv in to them test on their equipment as at least then you can get some more help with what might be going on here, if the tv is faulty then you will know on saturday so keep me informed of how it goes with both Richers and the calibration. Fingers crossed you get it all sorted by saturday and i look forward to hearing how you get on.
I tried the Optimiser myself but didn’t find it an awful lot of help as you can’t set the contrast, at least not on my GT30 as the boxes on the contrast test pattern won’t bleed in to each other. Whether this is true of just my particular model or of all Panasonic plasmas I have no idea - or indeed if this is the case with any plasma screen - but either way I’m sure you’ll find a good movie to watch!
If that doesn’t do the trick, I ended up using this to calibrate my TV using the tutorial here. Now the tutorial may look pretty daunting but it doesn’t have to be if you read through it thoroughly, and you don’t really have to look further than “Basic Settings”.
Now either way you’re going to need a blue filter, so do a google for “Lee Filter Tokyo Blue 071” under "Shopping" and you’ll readily pick one up for around £4. Hope this is a little help but it does sound as though you may have a problem with your TV if it’s as bad as you say, although I sincerely hope not. Anyway, good luck and hope you get it sorted soon.
Putting out fire with gasoline
Hello Sizzers good to hear from you again, was it me that suggested AVS HD to you or am i thinking of someone else?? Anyway, regarless of my poor memory, as mantis2012 is a complete newbie to calibration the whole process of downloading/burning and using the AVS disc will be far to daunting at this stage despite it being a brilliant tool that i use myself, i'm of the opinion that the THX optimiser will be far easier to follow and use at this stage as it's far less confusing and easier to understand.
After using the THX optimiser for a while and getting used to basic calibration mantis may feel the need to go into calibration a little further to a more advanced level but to start with the AVS disc will be a daunting prospect if it's your first calibration, bear in mind that previously mantis has only set a tvs settings to personal taste so going straight in with AVS will be a bit much right now hense why i suggested THX...i just think it's a far better/easier starting point.
There is nothing stopping mantis for looking at both options of course but if AVS HD seems confusing then THX optimiser is the best place to start i think.
And good to hear from you too. Not really been around for a while as life’s been something Eric Idle sings about but that’s another story.
I downloaded the AVD disc pretty much at the same time as when I bought my TV in March but left it to one side as I wanted to try the Optimiser first. However, for reasons explained I couldn’t set the contrast which wasn’t an awful lot of use which is why I returned to the AVD disc. Now believe me I’m no computer tech-head and I really am a slow learner PC-wise, and although it did take me some while to work out how to open up the files etc to burn the disc (using ImgBurn as recommended) I did get there after several attempts.
Prior to using the AVD disc I have only done one “proper” calibration before which was on my previous Sony TV using DVE Essentials (this really is the ultimate nightmare as I’m sure anyone who has used it will testify). I took the AVD calibration literally one step at a time over 2-days, and although I won’t pretend I found it easy the effort put in was more than worth the end result (just to mention that I have all processing turned off, only leaving the Orbiter and Side Panel in operation).
However, calibration aside I am of the opinion that there must be something going wrong with Mantis’ TV. I can honestly say that I have never had any motion or judder issues whatsoever on my GT30, whether watching sport (football, tennis, F1) or fast moving scenes through my modest BDP. In fact it’s been the perfect TV so far: no “green blob”, fluctuating brightness, or undue fan noise.
Anyway, I’m genuinely happy that you’ve got your TV finally sorted out and will have a chat about that on your other post when I have more time as have to fly to work *grr*.
I'm sorry to hear life has been a peice of.....lately, wondered why i hadn't seen you posting for some time but it's good to have you back.
I totally agree with you regarding the AVS HD calibration tool, it's well worth the effort for the results it produces, as you know i'm a real fan of it and considering it's completely free except for the cost of a dvd to burn it onto it really is a quality tool. It's miles better than that laborious and let's face it boring and condecending DVE Essentials calibration bluray or dvd that costs about £20 at retail.
When it comes to setting contrast with THX Optimiser i had exactly the same issue that you had and it boils down to the way in which a plasma planel works, with an LCD/LED panel the THX Optimiser patterns are far more effective with contrast and you can clearly see the point at which the whites bleed into each other but with plasma that simply doesn't happen as whites are consistent no matter how much you adjust contrast. You can still get it quite accurate by adjusting the contrast without looking for the whites bleeding into each other and instead looking for the distinct shades of white to reamian intact next to punchy clean white on the brightest box but it's not as accurate as AVS HD gets.
As for mantis's tv i agree it really does sound like something is wrong here as my GT30 also never suffered with motion and juddering like he is describing but then my new Sony 46HX853 really does do motion far smoother than my GT30 ever could. I did have a moment of clarity this morning and a possible explanation of what mantis may be seeing here....it could well be that as none of the tvs have ever been calibrated correctly including the previous Samsung LCD/LEDs then the two Samsung tvs may well have had the motion processing on from new! This would go some way to explaining the jarring differences he is seeing with the VT50 and may not realise this is infact a much more natural and true motion than the previous two that were in essence adding frames to the image with motion...just a theory but makes some sense.
I think mantis will have to wait until tomorrow when the tv goes to the local Richer Sounds store for a definitive answer but i'm really interested to find out what the conclusion is and if the tv is infact faulty.
It's great to hear your GT30 is still going strong and that you are enjoying it as much as ever, yesterday when i got home from taking part in the Big Question feature for the November issue of What Hi Fi (i can't tell you what was tested i'm afraid) i had a letter from Mr Julian Richer (founder of Richer Sounds) on my mat which i have to say was very welcome. It was no generic letter sent out to all unsatisfied customers and addressed all my concerns about my experience with the company, it was great to get his feedback and how appalled he was with the service i recieved. I have to say it's a very nice letter and attatched to the back were £50 worth of gift vouchers which was a nice touch, if i get the time i will put the letter up on the forum for all to see.
My trip to What Hi Fi HQ yesterday was simply excellent and it was really nice to see where all the reviews are carried out, what i can safetly say is that they seriously under sell themselves in the amount of time, care and effort that goes into every review in the magazine and online. Take it from me every effort is made to make sure the review process is fair and consistent throughout and the testing rooms are simply excellent, if you get the chance and time put your name forward and go and take a look for yourself....i came away with a whole new outlook on the magazine and website and the sheer amount of work and effort the team put in each month.
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