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mr malarky's picture
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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

ellisdj wrote:

I assume you must have a mega bright room with light shinning directly on the screen for a 2.0 calibration for daytime.  2.2 for 3D and I thought you would have 2.4 for movies I am quite surprised.  I wouldnt panic unless you see side by side or have the option to select the 2 you'll never know the difference. 

I have vertical blinds up at the window nearest the tv - I wont allow direct sunlight to shine onto my speakers in case of sun bleaching, as the room is south facing we get a lot of sunlight without the blinds it would be horrible and the tv unwatchable I feel

In saying that I have seriously never once found myself looking to change from 2.4 gamma since I have calibrated to it.

That was not my initial intention - I initially was going to use it for dark room movie viewing only but after seeing it, its a deep lush image and I havent found it to crush any detail at all - maybe its because of the size of the screen / where I sit I dont know

 

I tried 2.2 this morning - its appears to have a bit more pop / brightness as you would expect but I still much prefer the deeper and richer 2.4.  2.2 looks washed out by comparison

 

That was one of the selling points for me to buy the Panny over the My Lx5090 - on that I could only really cal movie mode to 2.2 gamma.  Someone told me to cla the normal mode to 2.4 and that I would love it but never did - that was silly of my, well lazy.

Getting a good 2.4 calibration took me ages

The first 2.4 gamma cal I did was too dark - then I realised that you have to cal all the way through to 90% whote balance and gamma - then and only after your there changing the 100% white balance and gamma aligns the rest of the calibration -- you have then have to go back and tweak all of them again.  Very hard to explain that is and it took me a while to figure that out.  I am sure its the same with all 10 point systems

Maybe your are supposed to do 100% first - not sure but I always start with 10%

 

Apologies if offended anyone with earlier comments - I was really shocked that is all.

 

This guy is the man when it comes to tv reviews I find - he targeted 2.4 so to me thats what I did, think he explains why

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm 

 

Back to the point on IFC - and the OP, you honestly can mess around with the settigns until you are blue in the face, you will never get it to sit right.

Think your having the calibrator in so just wait until you do mate and then make a judgement from there on the other settings such as IFC / 24fps smooth etc. 

 

Hi Ellis, no offence taken here so no worries. It's actually a really interesting subject we've stumbled onto here, have been doing further reading since my earlier posts and this is a subject around which there is very little consensus, indeed "2.2 vs 2.4" is a debate that seems to have been waging with occasional furiousity on some formed for many years now!

Key points to highlight based on what I've read so far are:

A) there is no current official industry standard for what gamma level should be targeted by studios when mastering content, or by manufacturers when building hardware. 

Dirol 2.2 is the 'unofficial' benchmark, but this is purely a result of the legacy of how gamma came about, ie the inherent flaw in CRT technology that produced a non-linear brightness curve (which TV studios had to compensate for by artificially introducing an equal, but opposite gamma curve into their content).

C) as a result, and due to the relatively large numbers of CRT sets still in circulation, 2.2 is still the level that studios assume people will be watching on their home TV's.

D) US TV studios apparently use 2.22 on their mastering monitors, where-as in the UK 2.35 is used (another unhelpful example of inconsistent standards, as per 50hz vs 60hz).

E) most film studios seem reluctant to confirm what gamma level they target when mastering BluRay content (which will be different to cinema, which again has no universal standard but is generally higher, circa 2.8. ).

F) the EBU are advocating the adoption of 2.35 as a universal standard, to address the consistency issues. 

G) the Japanese are apparently advocating 2.4, and for the first time this year some Sony TV's (eg the w905) target gamma at 2.4 in their out-the-box settings. 

H. ) opponents point out that due to the legacy of CRT driven 2.2, adopting a higher level as standard will mean new content will not be mastered at the optimum level for viewing on legacy hardware, and visa-versa, during what would be a 5 year transition period as people go through the upgrade cycle. 

I) 2.2 seems generally accepted as the ideal 'compromise' setting for mixed viewing conditions, where-as 2.35-2.4 is the purist setting for "black-out" viewing conditions. Some therefore argue for targeting 2.3, which our sets don't offer as an option...  :wall:

J. ) ironically the while debate is arguably pointless as gamma is an anachronism leftover from CRT days; its an artificially introduced factor designed to compensate for an inherent flaw in a panel technology most people no longer use; modern displays have a linear brightness response so in an all-digital media chain there is technically no need for 'gamma'; the studios are introducing it to compensate for a flaw in CRT sets that most of us aren't using, and then our plasma/LED sets are then trying to recreate that flaw to compensate for what the studios have introduced into the image - madness when you stop to think about it!?!

I agree re 2.0 on the daytime setting, it lacks punch so for the limited viewing time I've had since having it done I've had it set to "nighttime" all the time. 

Sorry for banging on, find the whole subject fascinating but appreciate I'm probably boring the pants of everyone else by now!  :silenced:

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

These sets allow for any target gamma mate - the 2.6 2.4 and 2..2 settings are just overall shifts, its the rest of the options that allow you to set the gamma you want so 2.3 is easily doable and somone of av forums suggested it for the vt65 as they felt 2.2 was too light and 2.4 was too dark.

 

Getting a good cal @ 2.4 is not easy, it took me a couple of goes and a good 3-4 hours -  many older sets wont be able to do it accurately, especially if you only have 2 point white balance - i.e. legacy compatibility, but the newer ones can do it very nearly spot on .... bonus!!

 

 

 

 

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

The last point I stumbled across (and then I promise I'll shut up!) is that. 2.4 cal can be problematic for people whose eyes have above average sensitivity to light, especially if their TV has a high peak luminance. The human eye's level of dilation is driven by the brightest part of the image they're looking at, so if a TV is outputting high luminescence in part of the image the viewers eyes will respond to that, and if the persons eyes are sensitive they'll contract to a point where shadow detail is lost on a 2.4 cal.

Completely subjective point, as how the hell do any of us know how sensitive our eyes are? But worth throwing in for good measure. 

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

ellisdj wrote:

These sets allow for any target gamma mate - the 2.6 2.4 and 2..2 settings are just overall shifts, its the rest of the options that allow you to set the gamma you want so 2.3 is easily doable and somone of av forums suggested it for the vt65 as they felt 2.2 was too light and 2.4 was too dark.

 

 

 

 

Thats worth knowing, thanks ellis

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

mr malarky wrote:

The last point I stumbled across (and then I promise I'll shut up!) is that. 2.4 cal can be problematic for people whose eyes have above average sensitivity to light, especially if their TV has a high peak luminance. The human eye's level of dilation is driven by the brightest part of the image they're looking at, so if a TV is outputting high luminescence in part of the image the viewers eyes will respond to that, and if the persons eyes are sensitive they'll contract to a point where shadow detail is lost on a 2.4 cal.

Completely subjective point, as how the hell do any of us know how sensitive our eyes are? But worth throwing in for good measure. 

 

I didnt know that - I have light sensitive eyes - however the first thing I do is calibrate max luminance to a set level - thats what contrast does -- I set that to approx 30ftl - I know that is a good light level for my eyes, I think that is 58 contrast on my set.

 

I have seen cal results where they run a higher contrast - that does potentially give the image more zing but I find it too bright....

I would like to see another set cal'd by a pro to see how it is - who is offering?

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

Playing I find set to THX mode the gamma setting has no effect. I guess thats normal and wonder what gamma the THX mode sets.

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

RobinKidderminster wrote:
Playing I find set to THX mode the gamma setting has no effect. I guess thats normal and wonder what gamma the THX mode sets.

Most likely 2.2, as that's the THX recommended setting according to this:

http://www.displaycalibrationonline.com/reviews_panny2010.asp

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

ellisdj wrote:

mr malarky wrote:

The last point I stumbled across (and then I promise I'll shut up!) is that. 2.4 cal can be problematic for people whose eyes have above average sensitivity to light, especially if their TV has a high peak luminance. The human eye's level of dilation is driven by the brightest part of the image they're looking at, so if a TV is outputting high luminescence in part of the image the viewers eyes will respond to that, and if the persons eyes are sensitive they'll contract to a point where shadow detail is lost on a 2.4 cal.

Completely subjective point, as how the hell do any of us know how sensitive our eyes are? But worth throwing in for good measure. 

 

I didnt know that - I have light sensitive eyes - however the first thing I do is calibrate max luminance to a set level - thats what contrast does -- I set that to approx 30ftl - I know that is a good light level for my eyes, I think that is 58 contrast on my set.

 

I have seen cal results where they run a higher contrast - that does potentially give the image more zing but I find it too bright....

I would like to see another set cal'd by a pro to see how it is - who is offering?

Dont mind you having a look at the ZT, if you don't mind a bit of a drive (we're down on the Surrey/West Sussex border).

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

Hi Malarky

 

That is a kind and the perfect offer thank you - that is the set I would want to see cal'd up and you have a source I would want to see playing on it as well - bouble bonus Smile

 

Sometime in the near future it will be great to set this up Smile

 

 

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

No worries, happy for the mods to forward you my email address so we can sort out a date etc. 

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

I'm not going to embarrass myself talking about gamma because I know very little about it ,I've taken a few people's advice and got in touch with Steven withers about calibration ,hopefully it will be done oct/nov ,just typed his calibration settings in from the av forum ,picture looks very good apart from colour temperature at warm people just look a wee bit sunburned ,changed it to normal.skin tones still look a bit off but outdoor scenes look amazing hmmm.

 

i still feel I have a very slight picture shake ,maybe it's a setting on my oppo feeding the ZT or I'm nuts.anyone know what setting on my oppo might cause this

and the intelligent frame creation is off  Smile like Ellisdj said the director didn't intend for this feature to be on so I'm watching the movie the way the director intended.

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

theflyingwasp wrote:

I'm not going to embarrass myself talking about gamma because I know very little about it ,I've taken a few people's advice and got in touch with Steven withers about calibration ,hopefully it will be done oct/nov ,just typed his calibration settings in from the av forum ,picture looks very good apart from colour temperature at warm people just look a wee bit sunburned ,changed it to normal.skin tones still look a bit off but outdoor scenes look amazing hmmm.

 

i still feel I have a very slight picture shake ,maybe it's a setting on my oppo feeding the ZT or I'm nuts.anyone know what setting on my oppo might cause this

and the intelligent frame creation is off  Smile like Ellisdj said the director didn't intend for this feature to be on so I'm watching the movie the way the director intended.

In terms of the settings on your oppo, basically all picture processing options should be set to "off" so it's acting purely as a transport and sending a clean video signal to your TV. Someone ese on this theead will be better placed to talk about the settings options in detail in the oppo. If your not sure about some of the setting options though then dojt worry, whoever calibrates your ZT will check your video signal path as well, which will include going into the settings menu on your oppo and making sure its all as it should be. 

I know what you mean about skin tones looking a bit sunburned initially, think this is basically because we're so accustomed to TV's being skewed towards blue in their 'out the box' settings. Skyfall is a great reference disc for picture quality, and with colour temperature set to 'warm' the skin tones look bang-on with that disc, maybe give it some time or just wait till its calibrated (as every panel will be slightly different in terms of its out the box colours).

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

theflyingwasp wrote:
.

i still feel I have a very slight picture shake ,maybe it's a setting on my oppo feeding the ZT or I'm nuts.anyone know what setting on my oppo might cause this

 

What do you mean by picture shake?

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

Ignore the picture shake thing Ellisdj it's just me being paranoid ,just been mucking about with the IFC so much I thought the actual image on screen was shaking or juddering even tho the Ifc was off.

 

 

Yes I am starting to think I'm so used to seeing a bad picture that when I get it properly calibrated it may look weird at first.will be glad when its all sorted i won't have to muck about with controls anymore ,if someone had told me a few years ago I'd be paying 200-300 quid for someone to fix the picture on my tv I would have probably cried with laughter.

 

long gone are the days when I had my 21inch hitachi with a bit of black sticky tape along the bottom of the screen to hide the bottom of the image since the tracking on the VHS i was watching was a little bit off.

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RE: 24p smooth film yes or no?

You wont think it looks weird you will think it looks right for the first time - evething just clicks into place  and it doesnt matter what your watching your just seeing whats there as its supposed to be.  Its very easy to tell I think - you will have no regrets

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