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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

John Duncan wrote:

professorhat wrote:
long death sentences

< Dailymail > Not long enough! < /Dailymail >

Oops - long death sentences?! I think that translates to

 

The owls are not what they seem...

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

professorhat wrote:

Add in the lack of basic human rights -

 

Absolutely. in the UK, paedophiles have a human right to pornography in jail. They don't in Dubai.

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

Seriously? That's your comeback?

Wow.

 

The owls are not what they seem...

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

Can I suggest that jjbomber starts a new thread about the virtues of a dictatorship, and leaves this thread alone. 

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

professorhat wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

Sorry, but you alone are responsible for your actions. You can say it's someone else's fault all you like, but you are the one choosing your actions, and you alone are responsible for them. If by encouraging others to engage in your own apathy those actions lead to a Tory government (or god forbid worse), which implements policies far more abhorrent to you than any Liberal or Labour government, then in my opinion, you cannot absolve yourself of some of the blame. You can clamp your eyes shut, cover your ears and sing "la la la" if you like of course. And who knows, maybe you can even convince yourself - people do it all the time.

I will always vote, no matter how pointless it may seem in some respects, because it is literally the one way I have any say in what happens to this country. So far, every vote I've made has been "wasted" due to the ridiculous method by which votes are counted. By forever living in a borough which has a "safe" Tory majority, not once has my vote had any outcome on the general election. But I will still make my way to the ballot box every 4 to 5 years, so I can say I did my part to try and prevent a government which in no way stands for my political beliefs, even if that's by voting for one which doesn't quite fit my beliefs.

Democracy is a marvellous idea, but flawed in practice. However, it's still a damn sight better than the alternatives.

I hear what you're saying, but nothing you can say will change my mind.

From about 1984 to 1997, I spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince people of the evils of a Conservative government, I fell out with friends, girlfriends, everybody, because I truly believed that if we ever got a Labour government, all would be good again in time. But the Labour party that was elected in 1997 was a not a party that I recognised, they didn't share my values, they were greedy, wasteful, they sought privilege, they [EDITED by MODS - Please do not bypass the swear filter] on the working classes, they lied to us all, their values were not my values.

Blair and Bush are war criminals, murderers, and it makes my skin crawl when I see Blair charging ridiculous amounts of money to do speeches, which he is only able to do because he was elected by idiots like me, who believed his lies. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Blair and Bush are supposedly Christians, well, if there is a god, and he does judge us all, then those 2 will be burning for eternity. Unfortunately, my lack of faith leads me to believe that they'll get away with it scott free. 

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

Unfortunately, my lack of faith leads me to believe that they'll get away with it scott free. 

 

No one ever goes scot free. They all die in the end. Smile

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

bigboss wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

Unfortunately, my lack of faith leads me to believe that they'll get away with it scott free. 

No one ever goes scot free. They all die in the end. Smile

But not in enough pain for my liking.  Smile

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

professorhat wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

Sorry, but you alone are responsible for your actions. You can say it's someone else's fault all you like, but you are the one choosing your actions, and you alone are responsible for them. If by encouraging others to engage in your own apathy those actions lead to a Tory government (or god forbid worse), which implements policies far more abhorrent to you than any Liberal or Labour government, then in my opinion, you cannot absolve yourself of some of the blame. You can clamp your eyes shut, cover your ears and sing "la la la" if you like of course. And who knows, maybe you can even convince yourself - people do it all the time.

I will always vote, no matter how pointless it may seem in some respects, because it is literally the one way I have any say in what happens to this country. So far, every vote I've made has been "wasted" due to the ridiculous method by which votes are counted. By forever living in a borough which has a "safe" Tory majority, not once has my vote had any outcome on the general election. But I will still make my way to the ballot box every 4 to 5 years, so I can say I did my part to try and prevent a government which in no way stands for my political beliefs, even if that's by voting for one which doesn't quite fit my beliefs.

Democracy is a marvellous idea, but flawed in practice. However, it's still a damn sight better than the alternatives.

I hear what you're saying, but nothing you can say will change my mind.

From about 1984 to 1997, I spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince people of the evils of a Conservative government, I fell out with friends, girlfriends, everybody, because I truly believed that if we ever got a Labour government, all would be good again in time. But the Labour party that was elected in 1997 was a not a party that I recognised, they didn't share my values, they were greedy, wasteful, they sought privilege, they [EDITED by MODS - Please do not bypass the swear filter] on the working classes, they lied to us all, their values were not my values.

Blair and Bush are war criminals, murderers, and it makes my skin crawl when I see Blair charging ridiculous amounts of money to do speeches, which he is only able to do because he was elected by idiots like me, who believed his lies. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Blair and Bush are supposedly Christians, well, if there is a god, and he does judge us all, then those 2 will be burning for eternity. Unfortunately, my lack of faith leads me to believe that they'll get away with it scott free. 

If you and the other "idiots" had abstained in the 1997 election, which of course was convincingly won by Blair, presumably the Tories would have won. Would you have preferred that?

Have you considered that (given your comments above and the poll results) your views may be those of a small minority? Do you consider it right that the minority should impose their views on the majority? I'm not saying that you are right or wrong - there is no such thing in politics, only opinions and that will remain the case until everyone thinks the same (unlikely) or until someone comes up with a system of government that pleases everybody all the time which is equally unlikely.

The systems by which people govern themselves are constantly evolving, different types of government have been tried, some have failed, some struggle on. The desire for choice, freedom and liberty seem to me to be innate in humans as are the urges to better oneself and to put kith and kin first. Some more enlightened folk such as Tony Benn may well see a bigger picture and have a vision  of a more equal and caring society but until the majority can shake off their genetic selfishness it won't happen.

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

I hear you. Honestly, I do. 

I loathe Blair for more reasons than I care to list. I also think the two Eds are fundamentally unelectable and lack the charisma and competence, respectively, to run the country.

However, the alternative is a party with a sociopathic commitment to inequality. Its leaders believe with absolute conviction that this is the natural order. This isn't caricature.

Their entire lives (through privileged, cosseted upbringings, education, and every rite of passage) have been informed by this belief. And they will do everything possible to cement their position and re-establish this order. This means systematically dismantling post-war freedoms. Worker rights are being abolished. Civil rights have been greatly eroded (New Labour were good at this, too). The welfare state is being cut back, to the detriment of the genuinely needy. (I'm not even convinced the NHS is safe.) These processes are taking place incrementally, and lost ground is very difficult to claw back. (Try re-nationalising the railways or postal service, for instance.)

So, if the choice is between incompetents trying to do some good and people who are very effective at causing most people profound harm, I'll opt for the former, even though neither prospect is appealing.

 

Unless of course you believe what they say, I see no evidence that the Labour Party would try to do any more good than the current government. 

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BenLaw wrote:

strapped for cash wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

I hear you. Honestly, I do. 

I loathe Blair for more reasons than I care to list. I also think the two Eds are fundamentally unelectable and lack the charisma and competence, respectively, to run the country.

However, the alternative is a party with a sociopathic commitment to inequality. Its leaders believe with absolute conviction that this is the natural order. This isn't caricature.

Their entire lives (through privileged, cosseted upbringings, education, and every rite of passage) have been informed by this belief. And they will do everything possible to cement their position and re-establish this order. This means systematically dismantling post-war freedoms. Worker rights are being abolished. Civil rights have been greatly eroded (New Labour were good at this, too). The welfare state is being cut back, to the detriment of the genuinely needy. (I'm not even convinced the NHS is safe.) These processes are taking place incrementally, and lost ground is very difficult to claw back. (Try re-nationalising the railways or postal service, for instance.)

So, if the choice is between incompetents trying to do some good and people who are very effective at causing most people profound harm, I'll opt for the former, even though neither prospect is appealing.

 

Unless of course you believe what they say, I see no evidence that the Labour Party would try to do any more good than the current government. 

 

Well, there is a saying that "the best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour". Did the last Labour government do more good last time round than the Tories this (or last) time?

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

professorhat wrote:

Seriously? That's your comeback?

Wow.

 

 

Plus one.

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

I hear you. Honestly, I do. 

I loathe Blair for more reasons than I care to list. I also think the two Eds are fundamentally unelectable and lack the charisma and competence, respectively, to run the country.

However, the alternative is a party with a sociopathic commitment to inequality. Its leaders believe with absolute conviction that this is the natural order. This isn't caricature.

Their entire lives (through privileged, cosseted upbringings, education, and every rite of passage) have been informed by this belief. And they will do everything possible to cement their position and re-establish this order. This means systematically dismantling post-war freedoms. Worker rights are being abolished. Civil rights have been greatly eroded (New Labour were good at this, too). The welfare state is being cut back, to the detriment of the genuinely needy. (I'm not even convinced the NHS is safe.) These processes are taking place incrementally, and lost ground is very difficult to claw back. (Try re-nationalising the railways or postal service, for instance.)

So, if the choice is between incompetents trying to do some good and people who are very effective at causing most people profound harm, I'll opt for the former, even though neither prospect is appealing.

 

I agree entirely with all of this, that part in particular, and I'm amazed more people don't get it.

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

professorhat wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

Sorry, but you alone are responsible for your actions. You can say it's someone else's fault all you like, but you are the one choosing your actions, and you alone are responsible for them. If by encouraging others to engage in your own apathy those actions lead to a Tory government (or god forbid worse), which implements policies far more abhorrent to you than any Liberal or Labour government, then in my opinion, you cannot absolve yourself of some of the blame. You can clamp your eyes shut, cover your ears and sing "la la la" if you like of course. And who knows, maybe you can even convince yourself - people do it all the time.

I will always vote, no matter how pointless it may seem in some respects, because it is literally the one way I have any say in what happens to this country. So far, every vote I've made has been "wasted" due to the ridiculous method by which votes are counted. By forever living in a borough which has a "safe" Tory majority, not once has my vote had any outcome on the general election. But I will still make my way to the ballot box every 4 to 5 years, so I can say I did my part to try and prevent a government which in no way stands for my political beliefs, even if that's by voting for one which doesn't quite fit my beliefs.

Democracy is a marvellous idea, but flawed in practice. However, it's still a damn sight better than the alternatives.

I hear what you're saying, but nothing you can say will change my mind.

 

This is an odd, maybe even worrying attitude for anyone to take to anything of any importance.

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

Alec wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

strapped for cash wrote:

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

I hear you. Honestly, I do. 

I loathe Blair for more reasons than I care to list. I also think the two Eds are fundamentally unelectable and lack the charisma and competence, respectively, to run the country.

However, the alternative is a party with a sociopathic commitment to inequality. Its leaders believe with absolute conviction that this is the natural order. This isn't caricature.

Their entire lives (through privileged, cosseted upbringings, education, and every rite of passage) have been informed by this belief. And they will do everything possible to cement their position and re-establish this order. This means systematically dismantling post-war freedoms. Worker rights are being abolished. Civil rights have been greatly eroded (New Labour were good at this, too). The welfare state is being cut back, to the detriment of the genuinely needy. (I'm not even convinced the NHS is safe.) These processes are taking place incrementally, and lost ground is very difficult to claw back. (Try re-nationalising the railways or postal service, for instance.)

So, if the choice is between incompetents trying to do some good and people who are very effective at causing most people profound harm, I'll opt for the former, even though neither prospect is appealing.

 

Unless of course you believe what they say, I see no evidence that the Labour Party would try to do any more good than the current government. 

 

Well, there is a saying that "the best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour". Did the last Labour government do more good last time round than the Tories this (or last) time?

 

Not as far as I can see, but I'm aware from previous threads you have a very polarised view of these things so I have no intention of getting into a debate with you on this issue. 

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RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BenLaw wrote:

Unless of course you believe what they say, I see no evidence that the Labour Party would try to do any more good than the current government. 

For what it's worth, I think Miliband has a social conscience. I may be wrong. As I said above, I didn't recognise Blair as a Conservative in Labour clothing in 1997.

However, I'm certain that Cameron, Osborne, and IDS have no social conscience at all. I've encountered the next generation of Conservatives on a few evenings out with Oxford PPEs. The description above is based on those encounters.

By the time they face the public, most Conservatives have learned to mask contempt for anyone not from their socio-economic stratum. Cameron's pretty good at this. Osborne's sneer gives him away more often than he'd like.   

There are no guarantees a Labour government will do more good. Even a well intentioned Labour government may lack necessary competence. Nevertheless, real harm will be inflicted on much of the electorate if the Conservatives retain power; and that's guaranteed. They've only started the job.

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