113 posts / 0 new
Last post
strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

I don't agree Strapped. Why would I vote for something I don't want, just because I disagree with it slightly less than the alternative?

Because the alternative is worse. If you don't vote, you can't complain when greater evils are visited on you. 

This has nothing to do with idealism. Think of it as a vote against something that's worse by comparison. If you're feeling idealistic, get out there and march, petition MPs, mobilise other like-minded individuals. 

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 20/10/2010 - 19:33
Posts: 5841
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

Because the alternative is worse. If you don't vote, you can't complain when greater evils are visited on you. 

I don't agree with you, sorry. Just because I don't vote, doesn't mean I do not have a right to complain, the lack of a worthwhile alternative means I do have the right to complain

.

strapped for cash wrote:

This has nothing to do with idealism. Think of it as a vote against something that's worse by comparison.

But it's not, it''s a vote of support, and there is no politcal party thatI fully support, not even close.

.

strapped for cash wrote:

If you're feeling idealistic, get out there and march, petition MPs, mobilise other like-minded individuals. 

Years ago I would have, but I have lost all faith in the people and politicians of this country. My politics are not easy to define, so it's rare that I find like-minded individuals. 

Lounge: Panasonic TX-P50GT50 / Yamaha RX-A2020 / Panasonic DMP-BDT110 / Dali Zensor 3 / Dali Zensor Vokal / Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearl Edition / Roksan Radius 5.2 / WDTV My Book Live / Seagate Expansion / Sky HD Box 

strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BenLaw wrote:

I'm not sure I see much of an opposition to a neoliberal orthodoxy either.

Nor do I.

However, we can continue hurtling toward a new age of serfdom (and we'd be hurtling faster with a Conservative majority), or we can consider what further brakes and levers might be applied.

 

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 19 hours ago
Joined: 21/11/2010 - 20:21
Posts: 6450
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

I'm not sure I see much of an opposition to a neoliberal orthodoxy either.

Nor do I.

However, we can continue hurtling toward a new age of serfdom (and we'd be hurtling faster with a Conservative majority), or we can consider what further brakes and levers might be applied.

 

In most constituencies that can only be an argument to vote for the Lib Dems. I don't see the point in a vote for a candidate who has zero chance of winning, it is the problem with FPP. Such a vote doesn't achieve what you propound. 

strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

But it's not, it's a vote of support

Or a vote of opposition, if you want to look at it another way. There's never been a party whose policies and ethos perfectly represented my own.

As I say, in the absence of a revolution, I'll vote for the party that most closely represents my ideals, even if there's some distance between the party line and my position. This doesn't mean I endorse everything that party stands for. It simply means I find the alternative more frightening.

Is this defeatist? Somewhat. But complete apathy means you'll simply bear witness to the worst the political elite throws at you (and others).

You surely can't disagree with everything every political party stands for.

Nihilism isn't a solution, either.

marou's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/11/2010 - 19:43
Posts: 169
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

I'm not sure I see much of an opposition to a neoliberal orthodoxy either.

Nor do I.

However, we can continue hurtling toward a new age of serfdom (and we'd be hurtling faster with a Conservative majority), or we can consider what further brakes and levers might be applied.

 

I wonder if this isn't an affectation of the privileged. We live in a country which is one of the most affluent in the world, where the poor don't starve, everyone has access to health and education and still there are those who adopt a pose - 'they'd all such oiks I can hardly bear to drag myself to the booth' - which 95% of the world''s population would find incomprehensible. For goodness sake - people died for your right to vote. Give them some respect.

strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BenLaw wrote:

In most constituencies that can only be an argument to vote for the Lib Dems. I don't see the point in a vote for a candidate who has zero chance of winning, it is the problem with FPP. Such a vote doesn't achieve what you propound. 

I'm not arguing, or suggesting we have anything close to a democratically representative model.

mr malarky's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 days ago
Joined: 04/04/2009 - 13:14
Posts: 908
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

strapped for cash wrote:

Because the alternative is worse. If you don't vote, you can't complain when greater evils are visited on you. 

I don't agree with you, sorry. Just because I don't vote, doesn't mean I do not have a right to complain, the lack of a worthwhile alternative means I do have the right to complain

.

strapped for cash wrote:

This has nothing to do with idealism. Think of it as a vote against something that's worse by comparison.

But it's not, it''s a vote of support, and there is no politcal party thatI fully support, not even close.

if your waiting for a political party that you fully support then I fear you'll be waiting an awfully long time BBB - its a sorry state of affairs but on balance I'm of the same opinion as strapped on this one, voting is an exercise in choosing the least worst option, but that is still an important choice to exercise.

As Southpark expressed so eloquently once, voting is often a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, but there are many places/peoples in the world who would die for the right to make such a choice, freely and without fear of intimidation. 

strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

marou wrote:

We live in a country which is one of the most affluent in the world

Relatively speaking, to some extent. In terms of income distribution, we're not doing so well lately.

We now have a vastly inflated property market, more tenants renting from private landlords than otherwise, soaring energy prices, wage increases below inflation for all but the very upper socio-economic strata, people wondering whether to heat or eat, and so on...

marou wrote:

where the poor don't starve

Though not only the jobless have become reliant on food banks.

marou wrote:

everyone has access to health and education

And different standards of both, depending on wealth, connections, position.

marou wrote:

people died for your right to vote. Give them some respect.

And people should vote, particularly if they're affected by the above, or concerned about these and other trends. 

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 20/10/2010 - 19:33
Posts: 5841
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

marou wrote:

strapped for cash wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

I'm not sure I see much of an opposition to a neoliberal orthodoxy either.

Nor do I.

However, we can continue hurtling toward a new age of serfdom (and we'd be hurtling faster with a Conservative majority), or we can consider what further brakes and levers might be applied.

 

I wonder if this isn't an affectation of the privileged. We live in a country which is one of the most affluent in the world, where the poor don't starve, everyone has access to health and education and still there are those who adopt a pose - 'they'd all such oiks I can hardly bear to drag myself to the booth' - which 95% of the world''s population would find incomprehensible. For goodness sake - people died for your right to vote. Give them some respect.

I respect what they did, absolutely, but I just can not face voting for someone, something I don't believe in. 

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

Lounge: Panasonic TX-P50GT50 / Yamaha RX-A2020 / Panasonic DMP-BDT110 / Dali Zensor 3 / Dali Zensor Vokal / Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearl Edition / Roksan Radius 5.2 / WDTV My Book Live / Seagate Expansion / Sky HD Box 

marou's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 02/11/2010 - 19:43
Posts: 169
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

strapped for cash wrote:

marou wrote:

We live in a country which is one of the most affluent in the world

Relatively speaking, to some extent. In terms of income distribution, we're not doing so well lately.

We now have a vastly inflated property market, more tenants renting from private landlords than otherwise, soaring energy prices, wage increases below inflation for all but the very upper socio-economic strata, people wondering whether to heat or eat, and so on...

marou wrote:

where the poor don't starve

Though not only the jobless have become reliant on food banks.

marou wrote:

everyone has access to health and education

And different standards of both, depending on wealth, connections, position.

marou wrote:

people died for your right to vote. Give them some respect.

And people should vote, particularly if they're affected by the above, or concerned about these and other trends. 

While I understand your subtle distinctions I'm not sure someone  in, say, sub-Saharan Africa, would. The West may have problems but a sense of proportion is not the least of them.

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 20/10/2010 - 19:33
Posts: 5841
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

Just to add, and this is my final (ish) word on the subject.

I didn't agree with Tony Benn all the time, in fact, I probably disagreed with more of his views than I agreed with, but I respected him as a man, and a politician, and I never doubted that he believed in everything he said, and there is not one current politician that I could come close to saying that about.

Lounge: Panasonic TX-P50GT50 / Yamaha RX-A2020 / Panasonic DMP-BDT110 / Dali Zensor 3 / Dali Zensor Vokal / Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearl Edition / Roksan Radius 5.2 / WDTV My Book Live / Seagate Expansion / Sky HD Box 

mr malarky's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 days ago
Joined: 04/04/2009 - 13:14
Posts: 908
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

There wasn't a happier person in the country when Labour won the 1997 election, I even went to Downing Street the morning after, and was interviewed by CNN singing the praises of Mr Blair. He alone is responsible for my apathy, for my almost nihilistic attitude, so don't blame me for not voting, blame the man you think did such a great job. 

i also voted for labour in 97, and again in 2001, so understand the sense of disappointment, but while its easy to say he was the worst labour prime minister for 35 years its important to remember he was the only labour prime minister for 35 years, nothing can be achieved in opposition, and in a democracy power is only achieved through compromise (ask any of the swivel-eyed loons in the current Tory back bench, who would seem to positively hunger for the ideological purity of opposition in preference to the pragmatic realities of government).

mr malarky's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 days ago
Joined: 04/04/2009 - 13:14
Posts: 908
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW wrote:

I didn't agree with Tony Benn all the time, in fact, I probably disagreed with more of his views than I agreed with, but I respected him as a man, and a politician

Amen to that.

strapped for cash's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 17/08/2009 - 20:56
Posts: 4619
RE: Anthony Wedgewood Benn passes

marou wrote:

While I understand your subtle distinctions I'm not sure someone  in, say, sub-Saharan Africa, would. The West may have problems but a sense of proportion is not the least of them.

I'm in danger of being miscast as a (global) champagne socialist, or so myopic I can't see past the problems on my doorstep.

Expressing concern about increasingly unfavourable conditions in the UK doesn't mean I endorse (or ignore) macro-economic inequalities.

Pages

Log in or register to post comments