Looking at what the nuforce is tryign to do - I would guess its trying to compensate for nulls you have in your freq reponse by boosting certain frequencies.
I could explain what all the numbers are but I dont have time now.
You should try and turn all the +DB down to 0 and see how that is - to be honest eq of that small amount +4db is supposed to be inaudible, especially in bass - thats come froma more experienced person than me and I have found when eqing the sub its best not to boost only to reduce!!
When you boost you ask for more from the sub, I fiod that often cuases the bass to be directional - now in deeper frequencies sealed boxes struggle so you are asking more of it where its already struggling - which is probably pointless - I noticed it hasnt reduced any frequences which I find very odd unless you are already sitting in a serious bass null. Maybe thats why you added a second sub
Or it maybe as I said to you months ago - as you have your subs turned down really low - they are struggling to produce certain frequences so the nuforce is trying to compensate for that - impossible for me to say sitting here
Yes I used to have an antimode in my system before I got the meridian - great little units that are 100% better than having nothing at all. Adding one will be more comprehensive than your current bass eq - you will be able to turn the subs up more as the peak modes will be more under control - this will benefit you no end in deeper bass repoduction with these sealed box subs and I think be better for you overall - certainly worth you trying
Meridian G61R, HD621, Bryston 9BSST
Optimised Audio PC - J River / JPlay / Custom Full Linear Power Supply
Panasonic 65VT65, Marantz UD7007, HIFi Racks Podium Reference
Monitor Audio GX100, GXC150, Apex A10, BK XLS400 (set with hard knee house curve)
JCAT USB and Sata, Graham Slee Spatia (SC) Graham Slee Lautus Digital / Analogue IC x 9
Sorry! That particular screenshot was not from my system, with my subwoofers, with my sample of the NuForce processor. Forgot to mention that I just snatched that screenshot from an online review of the AVP-18 on a French site called HDFever. Didn't have the ability to take a photo of my own OSD when I wrote that. I simply wanted to illustrate the manual filters / frequency bands availabul for manual tweaking, since there are only 3 and you said you had many more to work with on your system.
I have in fact turned the volume up to 12 o'clock now on both my AW-12's (was previously set at 9 o'clock with my Denon receiver) and when running the AutoEQ of the AVP-18 it doesn't seem to struggle or compensate for anything as far as I can tell. Bass is firm, agile and powerful. One thing that definitely differs from Denon/Audyssey is that now my AW-12's exhibit more fine low-end detail, from really mellow low bass effects that were previously inaudiable. Small things like that I've noticed, which is really nice. I watched a film I love to hate this weekend, whose soundtrack I'm very familiar with - "Prometheus" on blu-ray and the effect of the subwoofers were unmistakably more engrossing. Suppose I could say the 'presence' and integration of bass is better than before (on par with MultEQ XT32 which does have individual subwoofer calibration, in contrast to the NuForce... go figure!). I shall have to enter the OSD on my AVP-18 again and check the automated EQ settings. I am still experimenting with more calibration soon, but thus far I'm surprisingly pleased. I have no reason to doubt the effectiveness of AntiMode so I'll have to test one sometime! Thank you for the feedback!
Current A/V equipment:
NUFORCE AVP-18 (processor/DAC) | NUFORCE MCH-300SEC7 (multichannel amplifier) | MONITOR AUDIO APEX (5.2 speaker system) | SAMSUNG LE-52B755 (tv) | DENON DBT-3313UD (disc transport) | NAIM UNITISERVE (music server) | SUPRA (cabling) | LOGITECH HARMONY 900 (universal remote) | NORDOST PULSAR POINTS (isolation feet)
Glad I am hopefully helping you out. ....
In terms of the improved bass definition - I would put that down to a cleaner digital signal and better power supply in the nuforce compared to the denon - not the eq system one power supply per unit and not shared in the same noisey box. I am learning the extreme importance of this at the minute
I'm always grateful for feedback, ellisdj, and keen to learn new things. You seem to know what you are talking about on certain topics so that's good and I appreciate it. For example, I can't wait to add room treatments very soon!
I think you are correct about the improved bass performance I am experiencing now with AW-12 and NuForce AVP-18 at the helm. It's likely got to do with a combination of several things though; dedicated and better power supplies, better DAC, meticulous volume control, better output stages and signal processing alongside the EQ, all combined. This seemingly simple processor has but one goal; pure performance over features, and it's easy to see (hear) where the effort have been made and it's paying off in my case. Antoher reason is probably that Audysseys Dynamic EQ, as excellent as it can be and as much as I was addicted to it, adds more 'oomph' to the low frequencies through it's EQ and active loudness, which this NuForce does not do and does not need to do. So at times, as great as the bass was with Denon and Audyssey it could momentarily come off a bit bloated. NuForce makes the subwoofers play in a more controlled, nuanced and agile manner, while still deep and powerful. Will be awesome to test AntiMode though and add the room treatments to further enhance things because there is room for improvement (when is there not room for improvement? hehe).
I too am learning (or being reminded of) the benefits of using a/v separates compared to integrated units, as I use to own a separates system years ago (Lexicon DC-1 processor + Musical Fidelity HT-600 amp). Also the flexibility is unmatched in a system like this. The Apex speakers certainly seem to make the most of the clean signal and raw power of the NuForce units, as their performance have risen several notches.
I'm seriously considering joining the Apex club, been reading this forum and have been inspired by the enthusiasm they've generated, they must be something real special! I had a short demo at SSAV with 3 A10's at the front and radius hd90 at the rear. I enjoyed very much what I heard but has anyone lived with such a system and what are their thoughts? I don't have room for an A40 so A10 centre will have to do.
Part of me thinks I'm mad changing my B&W 602's and 600 LCR, but due to downsizing I need to, but tbh from what I heard they actually sound like I'll be upgrading as the speed, imaging and detail sounded ideal for movies, much more so than my current setup. But I will also be watching a lot of TV through them, can people be honest and tell me what they're like for that. I dont wan something thats so revealing that it just reveals all the shortcomings and ruins the experience.
Thanks in advance
HiFi: Speakers - ATC SCM40, Power Amp - Rotel RB-1582, Pre-Amp/DAC - Audiolab M-DAC
AV: AVR - Pioneer SC-LX72, Sources - Sky HD/PS3/Popcorn Hour C-200, TV - Pioneer PDP-428xd, Speakers - B&W DM602 s3 + 600LCR s3 + B&W DM600 s3 + B&W ASW300 sub (soon to be replaced by Apex!)
Hey Sam Cool that we can hopefully welcome you to the club soon!
I'm thinking if you've followed this thread you know my personal views on the Apex system already. While there are definitely more capable systems out there, in the price range this has got to be one of the better sub/sat options available. I have no experience of your B&W's so I can't comment on those, but rest assured I have gone from big, expensive floorstanding speakers (JM Lab Electra) to sub/sat systems and with good electronics Apex can sound big, refined and detailed in their own right. They do deserve to play in unison though, meaning I do NOT recommend mixing A10's/A40's with any other line/brand of speakers. What subwoofer you choose may not be as important (unless aesthetics are important then the Apex AW12 match perfectly!). Some say the surroundchannels aren't as vital but to me that's VERY wrong! To achieve that awesome voice-matched wrap-around effect that multichannel content depends upon you need to have Apex models all-round, no question about it.
For traditional 2-channel stereo, while Apex are definitely capable, I'd say there are better options out there. I never play in stereo any longer myself, multichannel only. I have heard the A10's with AW12 in demos though and set up correctly they can sound fairly big and balanced in stereo too.
In terms of listening to audio from TV through Apex I don't think there is reason to worry. Although they require (and deserve) quality sourcematerial (and again - electronics) to shine the Apex won't embarass themsevles on lesser quality TV sound either. Don't expect miracles though. I've connect my satellite HDTV-box to my audiosystem and run all audio through it while watching TV and it's surprisingly good most of the time. This has a lot to do with how your electronics process the TV audiostream as well, so just keep that in mind. Not all solutions will sound the same. There are also DSP-trickery in some electronics you might want to experiment with while watching TV. Or not? Depends on your preference. Since Apex are quite transparent and honest though they can reveal weaknesses in lesser recordings, but I seldom feel that it takes away from my overall enjoyment. If you have HD-channels with Dolby Digital 5.1 (I watch a lot of Discovery and National Geographic in 5.1) it's terrific through Apex! But once again, audio from TV varies in quality so so much, so it all depends.
I see you've got the Pioneer SC-LX72 in your a/v set-up. Some people love the Pioneer+Apex combo! I on the other hand didn't have much luck when I tested the SC-LX83 and 85 at home not long ago, but that's just me. The combo didn't tickle my fancy. Simply a matter of preference, I believe.
Yeah I'm certain you're right about the surrounds. I was thinking of waiting for the new Radius' to use as surrounds and then upgrade. But then why spend £900 when you can just spend £600 and get it right first time. I agree that all-round uniformity is very important for av. In the demo I tried using a radius 180 as a centre and it completely let the side down. 2 channel performance doesn't matter to me at all, as I have my lovely ATC's for that but my B&W's sound tired and old compared to the Apex (probably because they are quite old, lol). I can't wait to change.
I was hooked to your receiver experiences, but I havent got as far as reading your post about the Nuforce. Could you give me a brief explanation of what improvements have been noticed over the good ol' Denon. I would consider changing my receiver if I feel there are improvements to be had once I get them home and run-in.
Oh yes, you got your 2-channel rig all set, I see that now! Seems a fine one!
You're on the right track getting Apex all-round, so you do best in forgetting the mix with Radius.
Thanks for reading my receiver experiences, there's been quite a few (!). I haven't yet composed my personal review the NuForce gear as I want to allow a full break-in first and re-run the calibration and simply listen to more material I have stacked up. I'll probably post it in a separate thread as I probably won't be writing much about Apex in that one.
Please keep us posted and if you can take some pictures of your set-up!
Yeah really can't fault the 2-channel side of things, it sounds just perfect to me in my room. I did consider integrating the AV and 2-channel together but interestingly the pre-outs on the pioneer are utter bo*lox! The different between using the pre-outs into the rotel and just connecting the ATC's direct to pioneer is unbelievable, this is clearly an area which is used to save money as they probably assume 99% of people won't use them. But of course using the MDAC and Rotel is a dream. If people really want a good 2-channel system you should NEVER use a receiver to do it, trust me they will never compare to a dedicated 2-channel amp. Perhaps controversial, in fact I'd be interested to hear if people have contrary expereriences. Of course the SC-LX72 is hardly the best receiver money can buy. Anywayyyyy this is off-topic I think! But it's nice ranting to fellow nerds I mean connoisseurs .
Ah so the Nuforce is a relatively new purchase, make sure you post a link on here if you start a new thread. Do you know if they distribute in the UK?
I've always thought the reason behind the sub being much different is because of the amp and circuitry inside the sub. It delays the signal somewhat. I wouldn't change it personally because the time measured is a reflection of the delay and therefore is actually theoretically correct. This is part of the reason Pioneer employs phase control in the their machines.
Sorry this was meant to be in reply to a much earlier post!
Fantastic sounding a/v solutions for music are a rare commodity, for sure. I think you're doing the right thing with two separate systems. I will say though that when I tested the integrated a/v amp Primare SPA22 HD (almost 2 years ago now - my review is in this thread) it was absolutely staggering with pure music, the best I've heard period in many many years in fact. No surprise though, as that brand is primarily a stereo hi-fi company. I would have loved living with that amp but sadly it wasn't quite up to the task for movies, not in my case anyway, although others have praised it for that as well. I just know what I prefer and sadly it didn't deliver in that respect. I could not have my cake and eat it too. When I ran the Pioneers with my Apex I didn't find music OR movies particularly appealing, sadly, while I am fully aware some people appreciate both. Our demands, our expectations, our point of reference and preference, not to mention surrounding circumstance, simply differ.
It's a good idea getting the Apex, letting them break-in with your Pioneer, experiment for a while and see what you think. Just take your time. Yes, my NuForce separates gear are just two and a half weeks, so still 'discovering' them. It seems NuForce are not that well-known in the UK (?), even though they been on the market for a while, which is ashame. Here in Sweden they are quite popular among enthusiasts and audiophiles alike. I believe the following company is the UK distributor: http://www.robytone.com/
Just about to watch "Star Trek Into Darkness" and "Oblivion" blu-ray's tonight on Apex and NuForce - SUPER EXCITED! Last night I watched a movie I love to hate, "Prometheus", and was floored by the amazing reproduction of the soundtrack. Just jaw-droppingly good!
So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then
AV System - Panasonic 42VT30 ¦ MA Apex 5.1- 4xA10 1xA40+ AW-12 Sub ¦ Van Damme UP LCOFC Speaker Cable ¦ Pioneer SC-LX85 ¦ OPPO 95 ¦ Mark Grant G1500HD Precision audio cable ¦ Sky+ HD(1TB) ¦ Chord Active HDMI ¦ Furutech Mains Cables ¦ Belkin PF50 mains conditioner.
Bedroom - Sony KDL-40W2000 + Archos 7 streaming from Windows Home Server 2011, Altec Lansing inAir 5000.
Dining Room - Sonos S5.
Music - HP Proliant Server running WHS 2011 ¦ streaming FLAC to Sonos ZP90 and OPPO 95 via SC-LX85.
Hi Fi - Cyrus 8 XPd QX amp ¦ Cyrus PSX-R power supply acting as Pre Amp ¦ Quad 909 Power Amp ¦ Speakers - Spendor A3 ¦ Logitech Squeezebox Touch upgrade by Fidelity Audio ¦ power supply upgrade by Mains Cables R Us ¦ Furutech Mains Cables ¦ Power Plant Premier mains regenerator.
Controlled by – iPad2 and Harmony 1100.
I watched Oblivion last week (so,so story, great picture and sound quality) and most of Star Trek Into Darkness today (good story, excellent picture and sound quality). Prometheus - excellent picture but I found the audio quality to be soft and weak. The story - yawn and with a poor and seemingly rushed ending.
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Musicraft (Derby), Specialist Hi-Fi/AV & Multimedia Dealer
good accurate audio monitoring and good sound reproduction to all
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