The Apex Club

Hey stigi 

Sounds like an interesting demo, even if I never been a fan of Pioneers receivers personally. I'm actually looking forward to demo the new KEF R series, even if I don't plan on changing speaker system. From having heard so much positive feedback of their new lines (R-series and LS50) I'm not surprised you liked them. The LS50's are also of a higher pricetag than Apex, so we should expect nothing less. I kinda like the idea of the Uni-Q technology for their large, multi-dimentional soundstage, and when I owned the 3005SE package I was rather impressed. These are of a higher class though. 

Ricky> may i ask you, how many db is your subwoofers setting applied by Audyssey and did you change it to your preference?(if yes how many db?)

Hey there greedy  I actually re-ran my Audyssey calibration this weekend after having moved a few things around a bit and the system then set my subwoofers at +3.5db. I haven't made any manual changes to that in the Denon because it sounded just fine. Remember I have two AW-12's but XT ofcourse calibrates them as one. They were both set to 1/4 on their own volumeknobs prior to the calibration. I'm curious to know why you ask that? Do you have any issues with your settings?

Was setting the subwoofer at only 1/4 volume recommended by MA??  The only reason I ask is I have a kef kube2 sub and Kef themselves say to set the frequency and volume on the sub to full. Admittedly my sub volume is on a minus compared to my speakers after running Pioneer speaker calibration so it may make no difference. I just wondered that's all!?

Good question, Simon!

Everybody seems to recommend different things; Monitor Audio have their say, Denon another and Audyssey something else. In fact, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 not only recommends but and also does measurements to 75db volume setting for the sub and in my room that seems to work best. And it just so happens that 1/4 the volume on the Apex AW-12 equals 75db in my room. Since I currently don't have XT32 I use a sound pressure level meter just for the subwoofers before doing the calibration. Our ears and common sense should be the ultimate judge regardless of any recommendation though.

I'm not sure about KEF. When I had the 3005SE-system the included subwoofer (HTB2SE) didn't have any controls on it. Instead the receiver was left to take care of all of that. If I'm not mistaken KEF's other subwoofers in their rage don't have a filter bypass function? On the Apex AW-12 there is a flip-switch to deactivate the internal filter so the frequency knob become obsolete. After all, you only want the filter to be set by the receiver, not the subwoofer aswell. I suppose when you set the frequency knob to maximum it is bypassed? But also turning the volume to maximum seems a bit steep.

As long as it sounds ok then it's all good I suppose

Ricky> just interesting to know, i havent any problems with that.Audyssey Multeqxt32 set my subwoofer to -0,4db  - it works fine, i cant detect where in my room the sub is.Sub is very good integrated.Sub volume knob is  about ten o clock- similar to yours( to achieve 75db), thanks..

Ok, greedy    - BTW, you gotta get that Audyssey Pro kit very soon! I'm anxious! 

How many spots in your room with the Apex speakers do you think you will measure once you get it? I suppose 32 positions is recommended for VERY large rooms (?). For me, the 8 'normal' spots is good in my small room but I think I could do at least 3-4 additional positions with Pro.

Ricky>i dont know when i will buy Audyssey Pro, because i am saving for my new Plasma Tv right now.( The plasma is in my equipment list like a dream :)Want to change my 32" Philips Lcd tv.. I want Panasonic 50VT50, but my wife worries, that it is too big.I think also about 42gt50..My room is not big too.. about 20 m2..I will ask Audyssey team how many measurements i must do in my room

I upgraded from the Kef KHT 2005.3 5.1 speakers with the Kube 2 sub to the Apex 5.1 setup and the difference was immediately apparent! The Kefs were a good speaker package for the £800 but the £2500 Apex speaker package is in another league altogether (as you would expect for the price difference). There is a lot more detail from the apex, you will hear things with the Apex that you wouldn't hear with the Kefs - espcecially at the top-end and bottom-end of the frequency range. I was a bit dissapointed with the Kube-2 sub as it wouldn't go any lower than around 35hz (from memory?) - the Apex sub goes to <20hz and has twice the power. Having owned both setups I would say if you have the money to upgrade, do it - you won't be dissapointed!

Chord Freak ..... Thanks for the comments. I sort of expected already that the apex system would be a better speaker if down to the price alone. However it's nice to hear from somebody who has direct comparison of the two different speakers. I definitely think this will be my next purchase!

surely it makes more sense to increase the volume knob on the subs themselves and not boost the level within the receiver past 0db. Receivers are not designed to have a high quality sub amp, just line level 

if you check about and from experience boosting the level sounds far worse than actually driving the amp itself harder - most amps sound thir best when driven harder - then factor in you are driving a 12" speaker which is a large speaker. You want more amp power, not a higher input volume less power, even if it means calibrating again.  

Hi Greedy, 

I'm finally all set up and it is sounding fantastic. I've wall munted the A10's and used Silver anniversary cables for all.

I've set up sing Audessey and will do another calibration i the new year....now that i have a couple of extra bits of funiture in the room. 

I have an issue to iron out though, I get a slight picture judder when running sources through the Denon, have you experienced this at all? It is usually at the end of a frame when tracking. On the positve note the sound is amazing, o do need to turn it up to almost 75% volume to get some oomph from the Denon though.

The speakers are amazingly clear and i love them and the unobtusive look also. 

I've also only used a HDMI for sky, and i beleive i need to use a optical cable to get digital from sky as its not passed throught he HDMI.

Overall amazing...I'll post some pics soon. 

Joe

Thanks for the Advice Ricky, I've put it all to good use. 

The system is sounding awesome and i need to iron out some picture judder issues with the denon and get sky on a optical and I'm pretty much there. 

I will be re-running Audessey in the new year to fine tune the sound however very happy. I really like the Denon amp its working great with the speakers. the Apex's are proving fantastic and pick out loads of detail. 

If you have any other tips for improving the performance let me know. 

thanks

joe

Hey Joe 

Great that you are happy with the results. Keep on experimenting with the Denon + Audyssey, possibly look into getting an Audyssey Pro kit to maximize the performance from your system. That's what I plan to do as soon as I have a new receiver/processor with XT32.

BTW: I just re-ran another 8-point Audyssey calibration this week during the holidays. I placed the tripod with mic in 5 straight-line positions in my 3-seat sofa and then the remaining 3 measurements right in front of it.  Previously I've only done 3 measurements in the sofa (on each seat). The sound from the Apex has improved further now which is very interesting (larger soundstage + somewhat tighter bass). Seems I'm always discovering how 'sensitive' Audyssey is (in the positive sense).

In terms of the judder issues - are you sure it's caused by routing the signal through the Denon? Have you tried connecting the HDMI cable directly to the TV just to check if you can rule the Denon out? Suppose you could also try to disable any picture processing within the Denon (put it to 'through' or 'direct' in the picture menu settings). I'd suggest also updating the firmware in the Pioneer (I had the LX55 when I tested one of their receivers and the picture juddered terribly before I made the firmware update). Just a few tips. If that doesn't help, it may simply be the case of the Pioneer itself and the interaction with your particular TV. I have an Oppo player now and it judders slightly in certain 'difficult' scenes on my Samsung LCD, whereas when I had my old Denon blu-ray player I never had that problem (using exactly same TV/cables/connection method). This is partly why I am considering looking into a new Denon (or Marantz) blu-ray player. Love the quality of those machines!

In theory your suggestion makes perfect sense, and in some rooms with some set-up's I'm sure it is the ideal solution. Not in my case however (I have tried this back-and-forth several times, since subwoofers are often the tricky part). Plus, as I stated in several other posts, setting my AW-12's to 1/4 of max volume happen to equal the suggested 75db recommendation by Audyssey when the Denon/Onkyo calibration tool measures the output volume.

Simply put; the setting I described sounds best in my room. When trying the opposite (your suggestion) low frequenzies have a slight tendency to sound a tad bloated and boomy. I'll be trying your suggestion again however as soon as I get XT32 with my next receiver/processor.