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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

 

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths 

 

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables. 


What about sound though?

Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture.

I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

bamindy wrote:

Maybe you should spend £40 on a USB cable and see if your digital camera photos look better too??  :wall:


I sit on the fence of this whole topic, but streaming data is not the same as copying a file.
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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

Sliced Bread wrote:
BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

 

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths 

 

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables. 

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

 

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed. 

 

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve. 

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

 

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths 

 

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables. 

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

 

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed. 

 

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve. 


If that is the case then I should be hearing such symptoms from time to time in the sound as I should be receiving an error every second if the OP is correct, but I've never heard this ever. Only in 'really' bad signals when strreaming from you tube or something have I seen anythinig like this. I believe this is not quite the same thing. I can't really believe that I have never had an error in the stream, so I imagine the manifestation of an error may be something else.

Maybe the player detects the error and leaves the information out, or maybe in the case of audio the dac somehow tries to smooth it out...I just don't know. I've not seen enough facts to make a judgement either way.

What you say maybe true, but I'm keeping an open mind on this front.

I think I'd need to see / hear it all for myself to be sure.

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

Sliced Bread wrote:
BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
BenLaw wrote:

Sliced Bread wrote:
OK here’s a question: Let us say that HDMI certified cables are measured to less than 1-bit per billion. I am *assuming* that this is measured under the most flattering conditions possible for the cable (i.e. virtually no interference) as the manufacturer wants the certification. Does a cable that had exactly a 1-bit per billion error rate, have exactly the same error rate when stuffed under the hi-fi rack, curled up and crossing several power cables, a power block, speaker cables and interconnects many many times over in very close proximity as most of us stuff the cables out of site. I’m not sure how interference effects the signal of a HDMI cable, but it is likely that it will increase the error rates *another assumption*. *If* true then better insolation / booster chips etc may make a difference for some people, *if* their system is revealing enough *and* there are issues of interference. This is more a question than a statement.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

 

I don't know how up to date that information is, but it seems to mean that any certified product may not in fact be individually certified, certainly at longer lengths 

 

Thing is, though, individual and random errors in data are just that, they aren't richer colours, deeper bass, an increased top end or whatever else was claimed. You see them in blocking / sparklies when they get too much. At most, one can imagine a single pixel during a single frame may be unpredictably the wrong colour. But none of the stuff that is claimed about these digital cables. 

What about sound though? Asyncronous USB is said to improve sound. I've not tested this at all myself so I'm on the fence, but it sounds reasonable to me that a cleaner digital signal would produce better results. I just don't know about picture. I do really wonder, how much of this is enviornemnt specific...you should see the underside of my rack...it's a mess :doh: They don't move an inch either because I had to lift the rack up (40kg including kit), then drop it down on the cables to make it fit :clap: If there is cable interference, then it is in abundance under there. Fortunately I have a rubbish HD ready plasma which isn't revealing in the least, so if there is a problem...

 

Digital cables don't distinguish between sound and picture, it's all just data. So what I said applies equally to sound. Errors are by their nature random and unpredictable. If they are too bad, it results in cracks, pops and drop outs. No amount of random error equates to deeper bass or wider soundstage, both of which I think we're claims by the OP. Certainly that is the sort of thing commonly claimed. 

 

Asynchronous USB works by reducing jitter, although there are long standing and thorough studies that show jitter is undetectable by humans below a certain level, which any well constructed modern dac can achieve. 

If that is the case then I should be hearing such symptoms from time to time in the sound as I should be receiving an error every second if the OP is correct, but I've never heard this ever. Only in 'really' bad signals when strreaming from you tube or something have I seen anythinig like this. I believe this is not quite the same thing. I can't really believe that I have never had an error in the stream, so I imagine the manifestation of an error may be something else. Maybe the player detects the error and leaves the information out, or maybe in the case of audio the dac somehow tries to smooth it out...I just don't know. I've not seen enough facts to make a judgement either way. What you say maybe true, but I'm keeping an open mind on this front. I think I'd need to see / hear it all for myself to be sure.

 

Exactly, one error in a billion or whatever does not manifest itself in an audible way. Only when there are lots of errors, eg if your cable is broken or where you get aerial drop out will errors manifest themselves in an audible or visible way. Whether it's so few errors you can't tell or so many that you can, errors in data do not - cannot - manifest themselves in consistent ways such as deeper blacks or lower bass. 

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

:grin:

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

I had been testing out a more expensive HDMI cable over the past few months, and I'd recently put my normal one back in (Chord Active Silver Plus). I had meant to try a few familiar Blurays but didn't get round to it last week. Now too much time has passed, so I think I'll need to loan it again...

I was recently talking to Audioquest and they tell me they won't willing.y use any 'active' components in their HDMI cables as their testing found that it actually degraded quality. I haven't been into the details of this yet, but I'm just passing that on for those who are interested. If I recall correctly, Audioquest are working on longer cable runs that won't need an active component in order for it to work properly.

Whats your opinion on this David, as a man that works in this sector.

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

 

:grin:     :clap:   

Apple lossless - Netgear Nighthawk - ATV3 - AVI ADM 40.  

AVI ADM 9T used in my wife's system

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

:grin:

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it.  So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly Smile

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

duaplex wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

:grin:

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it.  So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly Smile

 

You never did answer my questions about the detail of what 'testing skyfall' meant. 

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RE: I was wrong about HDMI cables!

duaplex wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

bigboss wrote:

I once cured impotence in a man within 2 days by prescribing multivitamin capsules to be taken with a glass of milk. It's true.

 

??

Smile

It's very relevant to the discussion - the power of suggestion, and how powerful a placebo can be! 

 

I see, you gave him the equivalent of a chip to, er, boost his signal. 

:grin:

It's true and like I said my wife who was unaware of the test and the fact i swapped cables spotted it.  So does that mean the plecebo is extended to her telepathicaly Smile

No, but it can mean one or more of many things.

1. She knew you had spent money on an "upgraded" cable. In that case her testament is invalid.

2. She saw you fiddling with the TV or something similar and in those cases her testament is invalid.

3. You inadvertently changed something else. Maybe a mode on TV / BR or some furniture, curtains, etc, thus rendering the point moot.

4. You are lying,

 

There could be other reasons which I haven't thought of, but HDMI cables only differ in that they function, or don't, or are on the way not to, resulting in drop-outs in audio, obvious artifacts in the picture etc. I have chucked a couple out myself, and always buy from a seller on ebay now. They are premium grade and cost around £10-£20 depending on length.

 

 

 

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