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duaplex's picture
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Cinema Loft Conversion
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Hi Guys,

Planning to convert the loft into a Cinema room with plenty of sound proofing going on in there to reduce the leakage of sound and especially Bass.

I have set myself a 20k budget for a speaker setup and currently have the following in mind.

MK S300 (triple fronts

MKS300 T (pair of tripoles, possible 4 for 7.1)

MK X12 sub x2

I have had a demo of this system and it sounds sensational!  Mind you the demo room had 8 Subs powering this and it was sheer bliss, not practical in a loft however, so downscaling the subs to 2 only (I know, the shame)

Next package I looked at was the B&W 800 D Series, I have yet to demo this system with its matching Center and Rears.  This is where my Dilemma begins....

Most retailers (all so far) who deal with MK, only deal with MK and nothing else, so running a comparison is difficult.  Going two weeks between demos will probably skew your memory of that experience.

So my questions is, are the MK speakers worth the money.  Is there a better alternative that we can buy in the UK? I am conscious of the import tax on the speakers and often wonder if we are getting true value for money in comparison to other brands that may be equally as good and cheaper.  For instance the MA PL300 range

 

Room dimensions 5.75m (L) x 4.8m (W) x 3m (H).  I have not considered the AV processor and power amp yet.

Thank you in advance guys

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

With that budget I would be looking at a good pre/pro and actives. And a good budget for room treatment, not merely for sound proofing. 

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

If it was me, I would go for a B&W 800 series or Monitor Audio PL300 or Kef Reference.

Do put the pictures up of your build!!  :cheers:

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

Ben Law is right about room treatments - £2k on room treatments £18k on speakers otherwise you might as well spend £5k on speakers and save the rest - you wont be getting the benefits.

PL300s I have heard in stereo - awesome speakers the imaging was incredible but that was in a fully treated room.

WHF absolueltely love B&W 800's (might be 802) I think if you check older publications.  You need a lot of space for speakers of this size.  I dont think putting them up against a wall would be a good idea to get the best from them - give them room to image properly

 

Good fun spending £20k on speakers, loads of options - shop about, extra time spent upfront demoing will mean you will be happier in the long run

 

Meridian 861 V4 LPSU, HD621, Bryston 9BSST - GIK Acoustics

Monitor Audio PL100, PLC 150, GXFX, SVS SB13 ULTRA

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

Plenty to consider here. Do you have the full height across the room or are your ceilings coombed? Are you going to run a projector and a transparent screen? The MK speakers are very good and if you are building a dedicated room then they are well worth considering. The other speakers mentioned will give you great results as well. You have a good space there - almost the same size as my demo room - and you have a real oppurtunity with your budget. My advice would be to get to a few dealers and installers to see what can be achieved.

 

 

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

Envy says a soundbar will be best. Keep us informed with loads of pics and invites for a cuppa.

Yamaha V2065. MS Mezzo 5.1 Panasonic 42. Sony BD. Garrard 86SB. WD Live TV. SkyHD.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/lounge-hc-signature-update-bass-traps

 

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

duaplex wrote:
Next package I looked at was the B&W 800 D Series, I have yet to demo this system with its matching Center and Rears.  This is where my Dilemma begins....

Most retailers (all so far) who deal with MK, only deal with MK and nothing else, so running a comparison is difficult.  Going two weeks between demos will probably skew your memory of that experience.

You'll normally find those type of products at places that are more installation orientated, so don't have hi-fi speakers on their profile.

Over the past few years, many speaker manufacturers have greatly improved their speaker ranges, so much so that hi-fi speakers are now much better than they used to be for movie reproduction.

PMC's Twenty Series sounds amazing in our less than perfect demo room, producing a big wide open, ultra detailed soundstage that never got tiring to listen to. In many ways, they reminded me a lot of the older M&Ks we used to use. Made in UK.

KEF's Reference range has always been good for movies due to the UniQ driver array. Their wide soundstage has always helped produce an expansive soundfield which is good for a number of viewers, not just one or two. These are also one of the more dynamic sounding hi-fi speaker ranges, which is a desirable quality for movie playback. Made in UK.

Sonus Faber's Olympica range aren't too dissimilar to KEF's Reference range - they seem to have very similar qualities, which again lend themselves very well to movie soundtracks as well as music.

ATC's loudspeakers, being sealed boxes, tend to produce good results in awkward rooms, and with their studio background you know you're getting something that is going to be "fit for purpose". Plenty of detail, thanks to very little unwanted additional colouration. Made in UK.

I can't speak for B&W's 800 series as I'm not familiar with them.

Quote:
So my questions is, are the MK speakers worth the money.  Is there a better alternative that we can buy in the UK? I am conscious of the import tax on the speakers and often wonder if we are getting true value for money in comparison to other brands that may be equally as good and cheaper.  For instance the MA PL300 range
 It depends on a few things. Many British speaker manufacturers have many of their ranges built overseas (in their own factories, I may add) in order to keep the costs down and the products as competitive as possible, whereas some other overseas manufacturers will build them in their own country, then you usually have the added cost of a distributor in the chain. Swings and roundabouts.

Quote:
Room dimensions 5.75m (L) x 4.8m (W) x 3m (H).  I have not considered the AV processor and power amp yet.
Overall that's not to dissimilar to our main AV demo room, although ours is a little more square, so you have a nice space there to do more or less anything you want to. As Nick has mentioned, you need to decide if your speakers are going to be behind an acoustically transparent screen, or whether speakers will be on show. You need to decide what sort of level you require from the system - are you the type that will watch films at Reference Level, or are you more reserved (say -30/-20dB volume)? For AV, you don't need huge speakers, so floorstanders aren't required, standmounts will do the job just fine, and can cut down the cost considerably when choosing a hi-fi speaker package for movie use. I would highly recommend using the same centre as the front pair though, even if this means buying a pair of standmounts to use one as a centre (if the manufacturer won't supply one on its own).

For AV processors, the likes of the Marantz AV8801 and the Yamaha CXA5000 should be your first port of call, and there may be one or two more excellent options available soon.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

What is it with the formatting on this site?!! |(

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

Thanks guys, I will look into the acoustic treatment of the room too.  I was told not to worry about that provided the room was built solidly (no rattle, no echo, solid when you pam each wall).  But I will have a look now that it was mentioned again.  

To answer the question about the transparent screen and speakers.  I don’t mind having the speakers behind the screen or even a traditional floor stand speaker.  I would rather have the better speaker than concealment.

David - I have a demo arranged for the 800 series and PMC.  I may need to take a trip down to you to demo the rest.  Besides you having a similar room size for demos means something too!

 

I will certainly take pictures once I am underway with the conversion Smile

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

duaplex wrote:

Thanks guys, I will look into the acoustic treatment of the room too.  I was told not to worry about that provided the room was built solidly (no rattle, no echo, solid when you pam each wall).  But I will have a look now that it was mentioned again.  

Without seeming rude I would be very sceptical about that advice. Why do concert halls (especially) spend millions on acoustic treatments? I would say dont worry about any equipment until your room is sorted acoustically - would be better advice!

Have fun anyway.

Yamaha V2065. MS Mezzo 5.1 Panasonic 42. Sony BD. Garrard 86SB. WD Live TV. SkyHD.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/lounge-hc-signature-update-bass-traps

 

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

RobinKidderminster wrote:
duaplex wrote:

Thanks guys, I will look into the acoustic treatment of the room too.  I was told not to worry about that provided the room was built solidly (no rattle, no echo, solid when you pam each wall).  But I will have a look now that it was mentioned again.  

Without seeming rude I would be very sceptical about that advice. Why do concert halls (especially) spend millions on acoustic treatments? I would say dont worry about any equipment until your room is sorted acoustically - would be better advice!

Have fun anyway.

I think he's still going to look into room treatment, but if I read it correctly, he's been advised not to worry at this stage as it can be added afterwards when and if any major issues have been detected. The main thing is to make sure the room is as solid as possible - the more solid the walls/floor/ceiling, the better the bass performance will be, and you'll not be hearing vibrations and noises coming from the room during bass notes.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

duaplex wrote:
Next package I looked at was the B&W 800 D Series, I have yet to demo this system with its matching Center and Rears.  This is where my Dilemma begins....

Most retailers (all so far) who deal with MK, only deal with MK and nothing else, so running a comparison is difficult.  Going two weeks between demos will probably skew your memory of that experience.

You'll normally find those type of products at places that are more installation orientated, so don't have hi-fi speakers on their profile.

Over the past few years, many speaker manufacturers have greatly improved their speaker ranges, so much so that hi-fi speakers are now much better than they used to be for movie reproduction.

PMC's Twenty Series sounds amazing in our less than perfect demo room, producing a big wide open, ultra detailed soundstage that never got tiring to listen to. In many ways, they reminded me a lot of the older M&Ks we used to use. Made in UK.

KEF's Reference range has always been good for movies due to the UniQ driver array. Their wide soundstage has always helped produce an expansive soundfield which is good for a number of viewers, not just one or two. These are also one of the more dynamic sounding hi-fi speaker ranges, which is a desirable quality for movie playback. Made in UK.

Sonus Faber's Olympica range aren't too dissimilar to KEF's Reference range - they seem to have very similar qualities, which again lend themselves very well to movie soundtracks as well as music.

ATC's loudspeakers, being sealed boxes, tend to produce good results in awkward rooms, and with their studio background you know you're getting something that is going to be "fit for purpose". Plenty of detail, thanks to very little unwanted additional colouration. Made in UK.

I can't speak for B&W's 800 series as I'm not familiar with them.

Quote:
So my questions is, are the MK speakers worth the money.  Is there a better alternative that we can buy in the UK? I am conscious of the import tax on the speakers and often wonder if we are getting true value for money in comparison to other brands that may be equally as good and cheaper.  For instance the MA PL300 range
 It depends on a few things. Many British speaker manufacturers have many of their ranges built overseas (in their own factories, I may add) in order to keep the costs down and the products as competitive as possible, whereas some other overseas manufacturers will build them in their own country, then you usually have the added cost of a distributor in the chain. Swings and roundabouts.

Quote:
Room dimensions 5.75m (L) x 4.8m (W) x 3m (H).  I have not considered the AV processor and power amp yet.
Overall that's not to dissimilar to our main AV demo room, although ours is a little more square, so you have a nice space there to do more or less anything you want to. As Nick has mentioned, you need to decide if your speakers are going to be behind an acoustically transparent screen, or whether speakers will be on show. You need to decide what sort of level you require from the system - are you the type that will watch films at Reference Level, or are you more reserved (say -30/-20dB volume)? For AV, you don't need huge speakers, so floorstanders aren't required, standmounts will do the job just fine, and can cut down the cost considerably when choosing a hi-fi speaker package for movie use. I would highly recommend using the same centre as the front pair though, even if this means buying a pair of standmounts to use one as a centre (if the manufacturer won't supply one on its own).

For AV processors, the likes of the Marantz AV8801 and the Yamaha CXA5000 should be your first port of call, and there may be one or two more excellent options available soon.

 

Presumably Ken Kreisel would also be a kick ass option David?

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

Indeed, David is correct.

Robin you are 100% correct in your argument. I have spoken with a company and they will be in after the room is built, will cost about 1.5k. I just need it built solidly first otherwise no amount of treatment will help in the loft.  Ironically the weakest link in this May even be the rooms around it and not the room itself.... 

Sorry for about the clarity earlier on.

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

BenLaw wrote:
Presumably Ken Kreisel would also be a kick ass option David?

Very predictable Ben. As soon as I posted, I knew you'd have another pop. Feel free to continue if you have no other useful purpose for this forum.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

BenLaw wrote:
Presumably Ken Kreisel would also be a kick ass option David?

Very predictable Ben. As soon as I posted, I knew you'd have another pop. Feel free to continue if you have no other useful purpose for this forum.

 

A serious question. Given the praise I've read from you about these speakers, they would seem to meet the criteria wouldn't they? You were effusive about them as a sub sat system and about their stacks of subs.

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RE: Cinema Loft Conversion

BenLaw wrote:
A serious question. Given the praise I've read from you about these speakers, they would seem to meet the criteria wouldn't they? You were effusive about them as a sub sat system and about their stacks of subs.

I used to be an MK Sound dealer too. And a Miller & Kreisel dealer - three different companies. I've dealt with other brands in the past as well, shall we include those?

If you pull yourself away from nitpicking on this forum for a little while, you'll find that I take part in threads for these manufacturers on other forums every now and again with whatever help I can give those that ask for it (as not all info regarding these manufacturers can be trusted). As I have said before, people contact me privately to ask various questions too, and if they ask, I give them an honest answer - again, if anyone I've dealt with before has views to the contrary, they are free to speak up. So far in this thread, I have given the OP my recommendations and few pointers, which he seems to be quite happy with (unlike yourself, but then, this isn't your thread) - it is now up to him who he approaches for a demo or more information.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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