107 posts / 0 new
Last post
CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 21/08/2009 - 18:01
Posts: 12712
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

cheeseboy wrote:

SiUK wrote:

 But they design and sell cables so what would they know?

they'd know that they will say anything to sell more cables.  It's called advertising.

 

It's nice to see a reasoned and balanced argument with no sweeping statements........Shisters, the lot of 'em  Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

cheeseboy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 17/07/2012 - 10:50
Posts: 1189
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

CnoEvil wrote:

cheeseboy wrote:

SiUK wrote:

 But they design and sell cables so what would they know?

they'd know that they will say anything to sell more cables.  It's called advertising.

 

It's nice to see a reasonable and balanced argument with no sweeping statements........Shisters, the lot of 'em  Wink

 

of course, a paper funded and written by a company that supports their sales is not going to be biased in the slightest is it? Wink  Unless you care to show me a paper written and funded by a cable company that says all cables are the same to show some kind of balance ?? Wink

andyjm's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 22 min ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 11:49
Posts: 786
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

SiUK wrote:

That's akin to selective hearing.

 

There's a really good article by Audioquest called 'Cable Theory. Theory vs Evidence'. I read it some time ago and found it to be a very balanced and intelligent examination of this topic considering their position. But they design and sell cables so what would they know?

 

I tend not to read the religious-style rants as they are invariably circular and you end up just going round and round someone else's prejudices. ..fruitlessly. Balanced examination does it for me.

In the spirit of balance, on one side we have the work done by Cavendish, Ohm, Volta and Ampere in the late 1700s and early 1800s on basic conduction, followed by the work on electromagnetic radiation by James Clerk Maxwell in the mid 1800s. On the other side of the balance we have:

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf 

andyjm's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 22 min ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 11:49
Posts: 786
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

CnoEvil wrote:

andyjm wrote:

You are of course quite at liberty to believe whatever you like - even in the absence of any scientific proof. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Oh well; it looks like I'm going to have to stop hearing what I'm hearing, until science catches up.  :shifty:

Cno,

I admire your staying power. At just over 10,000 posts, you must be WHF's most prolific poster. At the very least, you should get a free subscription to the mag.  As you pass this milestone, perhaps you could reflect on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

In essence, it suggests the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. My view is that given the lack of technical basis for the cable effects described on this forum, that it is most likely that the listeners are subject to some form of bias, and the differences that are heard are not real.

Covenanter's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 12 hours ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 10:16
Posts: 1420
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

CnoEvil wrote:

cheeseboy wrote:

SiUK wrote:

 But they design and sell cables so what would they know?

they'd know that they will say anything to sell more cables.  It's called advertising.

 

It's nice to see a reasoned and balanced argument with no sweeping statements........Shisters, the lot of 'em  Wink

Yes the sweeping statements aren't helpful but you aren't going to see "We make directional cables.  They don't work but we'd love you to buy them." 

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 10 min ago
Joined: 21/08/2009 - 18:01
Posts: 12712
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

andyjm wrote:

Cno,

I admire your staying power. At just over 10,000 posts, you must be WHF's most prolific poster. At the very least, you should get a free subscription to the mag.  As you pass this milestone, perhaps you could reflect on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

In essence, it suggests the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. My view is that given the lack of technical basis for the cable effects described on this forum, that it is most likely that the listeners are subject to some form of bias, and the differences that are heard are not real.

My primary aim on here is not to argue about cables, but if possible, help where I can with (hopefully) interesting and appropriate system suggestions / advice.....and learn about products that I haven't come across.

If people ask my opinion on cables, i will give it (and will qualify any advice with the suggestion to try before buying).......and it will be based on many hours of listening to a good variety of brands (on many different systems) and at a large range of prices. 

 

 

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

SiUK's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/01/2013 - 10:15
Posts: 410
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

Quote:
of course, a paper funded and written by a company that supports their sales is not going to be biased in the slightest is it?

If that doesn't sum up the idiom, 'throw out the baby with the bath water' (for andyjm, there's a Wikipedia page for that I think) I don't know what does!

Really? Are some of you here so myopic you willing choose to elliminate anything that doesn't exactly fit in with your own limited (from what I have read here) knowledge? Wow! Are you really that arrogant? Talk about 'dark age' thinking! You could hardly consider that a proper scientific approach.

I suppose if I'd worded my post more carefully I may have avoided (probably not) the fundamentalists jumping in with their ridiculing nonsensical explanations...if you can call them explanations. So perhaps it is actually my fault for not being more explicit. I should probably have asked for contributions from open minded people ...you know, ones that don't start with an insult, and then link to a wikipedia page at the end of almost every reply.

Anyhow, pointless to continue this amongst such esteemed company so please feel free to have the last vapid word.

cheeseboy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 17/07/2012 - 10:50
Posts: 1189
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

SiUK wrote:

Quote:
of course, a paper funded and written by a company that supports their sales is not going to be biased in the slightest is it?

If that doesn't sum up the idiom, 'throw out the baby with the bath water' (for andyjm, there's a Wikipedia page for that I think) I don't know what does!

Really? Are some of you here so myopic you willing choose to elliminate anything that doesn't exactly fit in with your own limited (from what I have read here) knowledge? Wow! Are you really that arrogant? Talk about 'dark age' thinking! You could hardly consider that a proper scientific approach.

I suppose if I'd worded my post more carefully I may have avoided (probably not) the fundamentalists jumping in with their ridiculing nonsensical explanations...if you can call them explanations. So perhaps it is actually my fault for not being more explicit. I should probably have asked for contributions from open minded people ...you know, ones that don't start with an insult, and then link to a wikipedia page at the end of almost every reply.

Anyhow, pointless to continue this amongst such esteemed company so please feel free to have the last vapid word.

 

hypocrite. 

 

matt49's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 49 min ago
Joined: 07/04/2013 - 12:07
Posts: 2184
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

This thread has descended into personal insults.

Mods, a quiet word with some of the more hot-headed posters perhaps?

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

andyjm's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 22 min ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 11:49
Posts: 786
RE: Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

SiUK wrote:

Quote:
of course, a paper funded and written by a company that supports their sales is not going to be biased in the slightest is it?

If that doesn't sum up the idiom, 'throw out the baby with the bath water' (for andyjm, there's a Wikipedia page for that I think) I don't know what does!

Really? Are some of you here so myopic you willing choose to elliminate anything that doesn't exactly fit in with your own limited (from what I have read here) knowledge? Wow! Are you really that arrogant? Talk about 'dark age' thinking! You could hardly consider that a proper scientific approach.

I suppose if I'd worded my post more carefully I may have avoided (probably not) the fundamentalists jumping in with their ridiculing nonsensical explanations...if you can call them explanations. So perhaps it is actually my fault for not being more explicit. I should probably have asked for contributions from open minded people ...you know, ones that don't start with an insult, and then link to a wikipedia page at the end of almost every reply.

Anyhow, pointless to continue this amongst such esteemed company so please feel free to have the last vapid word.

SiUK,

I have provided clear and simple explanations about the jumper and wiring questions you posted, with which you seem to disagree.  In response to my asking for clarification, you referred to a manufacturers brochure (the link to which I posted). Perhaps if you could explain where I was going wrong with my understanding of jumper plates and associated wiring, we could then have a reasoned conversation.   

Latinaudio's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 09/08/2014 - 03:39
Posts: 1
My grain of salt

Hi everybody.

I came to this forum by accident. Lucky me.

I have been collecting music since 44 years ago, listening every detail specially on my favorite records.

I have a turntable, cassette deck, tuner, cd player, streaming player, DVD, VHS, you name it. And more than 3500 lps, 1000 cds, etc.

Looking for bi-wire links to my JM Labs Electra 926, I found this forum.

No more than 30 days ago I received my brand new (expensive) speakers wire... and use the same Sewell bananas SiUK used (look at the pictures). Let them "burned in" for more than 10 days.. and was disappointed with the results. Loose bass, agressive treble. I came back to my old cheap cables,  without the bananas, recapturing some of the lost sound. Then I begun to try biwiring with the old and new cables. Bi-wiring made things clearer, open, but still the agressive treble concerned me. So I used again the new cable BUT connect it to the hi terminals and the metal jumper to connect the lo section.

Things were better, by good margin, until I read -by accident, I repeat- this forum.

I was hearing music, stand up from my chair, set the volumen of my T+A amp to minimum, and make the "Nordost" wiring. No more than 5 minutes after that, I played the same record I was listening.

SiUK: K-Boom!!!!!!!! I found what I was looking for: right away I heard the focus, clean bass and clear but no agressive treble I was expecting of my +20.000$ rig!!!!!!! Why? Bias???? SiUK: +40 years listening to music are experienced ears, no more but no less.

This is my grain of salt: always trust your ears. I´m a MD, and in medicine as in life, not all the scientific facts explain the whole truth. Sorry folks who made nasty  comments, try it at home... and we´ll speak. It worked for me, my wife and sons heard the same thing. But I never told them what were the changes or if I had made anything at all, I simply called them to hear music and ALL asked: "what did you bought now? It sounds terrific"

Case closed. Thanks again SiUk!!!!!

andyjm's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 22 min ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 11:49
Posts: 786
Latinaudio wrote:

Latinaudio wrote:

This is my grain of salt: always trust your ears. I´m a MD, and in medicine as in life, not all the scientific facts explain the whole truth. 

With your extensive medical experience, I am sure you are familiar with the problems faced by drug companies when using subjective patient feedback to evaluate the performance of drugs.  

It was established that even if the patient didn't know which drug was real or placebo, if the clinician administering the drug was aware if the drug was real, the unconcious cues given by the clinician to the patient were enough to skew the results. This is sugestion bias one stage removed, and resulted in the use of 'double blind' tests in drug trials where neither the patient or the clinician knew whether the drug was real. 

Given the clear and well documented problems of suggestion bias in subjective evaluation, I wonder why you think you are immune from this effect.   

 

  

hifikrazy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 09/08/2007 - 09:54
Posts: 632
And I thought the one good of

And I thought the one good of the site redesign was to get rid of this bunch of *censored*, which has at least made this forum a lot more pleasant lately. But alas, no.... It only takes one post about cables to get them crawling out of the sewers again.

chebby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 10 hours ago
Joined: 02/06/2008 - 09:40
Posts: 16401
Latinaudio wrote:

Latinaudio wrote:

It worked for me, my wife and sons heard the same thing. But I never told them what were the changes or if I had made anything at all, I simply called them to hear music and ALL asked: "what did you bought now? It sounds terrific"

If I 'called' my wife 'to hear music' she would just know I had changed something and she would naturally want to be complimentary in order to make me feel happy.

Assuming that you also got married to someone who likes to see you happy (and knows all of your moods and expressions and body language inside-out), then it's not a meaningful test.

My wife once returned from work and could tell  - even before stepping into the living room - that I had bought a new system just from the type of music I was playing and from the untypically louder than usual volume.

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

abacus's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 11 hours ago
Joined: 24/09/2008 - 23:16
Posts: 495
Old thread resurrected, let

Old thread resurrected, let it RIP.

Bill

Pages

Log in or register to post comments