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WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

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CnoEvil's picture
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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

MeanandGreen wrote:

the record spot wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

I've always thought PRaT was a joke on the back of the acronym.  I've never yet heard an amp, or source, affect "timing".  What timing is going to go exactly?  Will the drum beats be out of sync?  Will the guitar be a beat behind?  Will the conductor suddenly lose the orchestra?  Nope...never anything like that yet. 

Indeed I think the whole "timing" thing is nonsense. Timing of individual instruments on a recording cannot be affected.

An amp that can't properly control the bass driver on a speaker, turns the whole bassline and drums to a sort of muddled mush...thus effecting the timing (IMO).

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

Ketan Bharadia wrote:

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged. 

 

how do you measure this ?

 

transparency is a BS word that has no meaning in this context,  but WHF and hi Fi in general Are not alone. Any reviewer of pretty much anything probably has to dress it up a bit. 

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

CnoEvil wrote:

Covenanter wrote:

Ketan Bharadia wrote:

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged. 

That's clear enough but how do you know what the original "music signal" sounds like so that you can judge the extent of any "change"?

BTW perhaps you could explain "timing"?

Chris

While waiting for a reply, this might help ie. explaining the relationship between Pace, Rhythm and Timing: http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

 

That kind of explains what the terms means, but doesn't make any attempt to explain how different kit changes them. 

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

Overdose wrote:

Are distortion figures not printed in most hifi product specifications?

Measurements will show distortion or artifacts, but wether or not you can actually hear and identify them is another matter entirely, which is where 'audibly transparent' comes in.

 

Playing devil's advocate, is there any reason why there can't be an 'audibly transparent' passive crossover?

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

With regard to OP's query, it seems the amp in question alters the music signal, producing an output that is soft and smooth.

Surely it would be easier to provide a measurement/reading of these change and provide it in a graphic within the magazine.  When this type of thing is put down in writing it's all rather wishy-washy and difficult to decipher.

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

BenLaw wrote:

That kind of explains what the terms means, but doesn't make any attempt to explain how different kit changes them. 

The timing is in the recording, which means that a piece of kit can only mess it up, but never improve it (obviously)....I think it will take an electrical engineer to fully explain how source / amp / speaker design can effect it. 

 

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

That kind of explains what the terms means, but doesn't make any attempt to explain how different kit changes them. 

The timing is in the recording, which means that a piece of kit can only mess it up, but never improve it (obviously)....I think it will take an electrical engineer to fully explain how source / amp / speaker design can effect it. 

 

You're seriously suggesting that a CDP might play the music at the wrong speed?

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

byakuya83 wrote:

Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

With regard to OP's query, it seems the amp in question alters the music signal, producing an output that is soft and smooth.

Surely it would be easier to provide a measurement/reading of these change and provide it in a graphic within the magazine.  When this type of thing is put down in writing it's all rather wishy-washy and difficult to decipher.

WHF have always tried to tell it like it is in a simple kind of way without blinding people with science. Most people reading reviews about amps in this price category won't want or understand graphs and distortion ratings, they just want to know roughly how it sounds. 

However I do agree a lot of WHF descriptions or any Hi-Fi publications descriptions for sound quality for that matter are very subjective with overly elaborate wording.

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

BenLaw wrote:

You're seriously suggesting that a CDP might play the music at the wrong speed?

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know to what extent  any component can effect it eg.In a digital source, does jitter only come across as a hardening of the sound, or can it subtley effect the timing. My Linn DS has a faster cleaner sound than my Karik / Numerik or Arcam DV 79.

My amp has lightening transient response, due to being Class A, which I believe effects the timing.

I also think standmounts can sound "faster" than floorstanders; and sealed speakers often have bass that is easier to follow (than ported), which also effects the timing.

Maybe someone qualified will be along to better answer your question.

 

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

MeanandGreen wrote:
Indeed I think the whole "timing" thing is nonsense. Timing of individual instruments on a recording cannot be affected.

Also playing devil's advocate - shouldn't we keep our minds open to possibilities? Or should we close it based on what we think isn't possible?

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

BenLaw wrote:
Playing devil's advocate, is there any reason why there can't be an 'audibly transparent' passive crossover?

No, but I know a man who can  rolling on the floor laughing

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

byakuya83 wrote:
Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

Cno touched on this earlier - an amp that rolls its bass off a little early can sound faster. Because it isn't producing the lower notes that many speakers (and probably amplifiers) can't keep a grip on, it sounds like it is more in control, and therefore sounds faster, seemingly exhibiting more accurate pace and timing.

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

byakuya83 wrote:
Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

Cno touched on this earlier - an amp that rolls its bass off a little early can sound faster. Because it isn't producing the lower notes that many speakers (and probably amplifiers) can't keep a grip on, it sounds like it is more in control, and therefore sounds faster, seemingly exhibiting more accurate pace and timing.

That's good. I was talking "on the hoof" and making it up as I went along!  excellent!

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

byakuya83 wrote:
Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

Cno touched on this earlier - an amp that rolls its bass off a little early can sound faster. Because it isn't producing the lower notes that many speakers (and probably amplifiers) can't keep a grip on, it sounds like it is more in control, and therefore sounds faster, seemingly exhibiting more accurate pace and timing.

"... rolls off its bass a little early ..."

Que?

Chris

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RE: WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

byakuya83 wrote:
Simlary, how does an amp or player affect rhythm and/or pace?

Cno touched on this earlier - an amp that rolls its bass off a little early can sound faster. Because it isn't producing the lower notes that many speakers (and probably amplifiers) can't keep a grip on, it sounds like it is more in control, and therefore sounds faster, seemingly exhibiting more accurate pace and timing.

 

Oh you mean as in a lean sounding speaker, or leaner sounding against one with a fuller bass?  This is down to an interpretation of how we describe bass.  More to do with the ability of a speaker to reproduce bass depth than "timing" of the music itself though I'd suggest.  

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