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drummerman's picture
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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Ok ... ok Smile

regards

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

drummerman wrote:

Ok ... ok Smile

regards

Easily done, don't fret it.

Just take the ribbing on that 'manly' chin of yours.......... :beer:

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD) RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Covenanter wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Covenanter wrote:

People just like the sound of distortion.

Chris

Chris, which TTs have you owned?

I had a Dual kit turntable (I don't remember the arm but the amp was Sansui)  in the early 1970s and then I moved up to a Thorens TD160 with a Hadcock arm (lovely AKG cartridge) in the late early 1970s (bought from Billy Vee in South London).  I loved it and then CDs came out and I heard something that actually sounded like the original sound and I have never been tempted to go back.

I don't mind people liking the vinyl sound but anyone who pretends that it isn't simply distortion is out there with the fairies.  You have to Angel distort the sound to get it on vinyl (RIAA filtering) then (b) the geometry means you can never get it back accurately and then (c) the RIAA to get it back can never 100% match the RIAA in.  To repeat, you might like what it sounds like but it simply isn't accurate.

So guys please don't pretend.  Just say that you like the sound, not that it sounds more like the original than a digital source because simply it doesn't and indeed can't.

Chris

PS This is the main problem with this forum.  When it comes to this or cables or mains regulators or whatever, the protagonists simply don't have the globular objects to admit that their beliefs are just based on what they hear and have no basis in objective reality.  I don't mind you thinking that vinyl is better just as I don't mind that there are people who believe in ghosts.  I am used to a world where a good percentage of people live in a fantasy land.

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

Thx for the detailed response.

IME. Every source is a compromise, and as David has rightly said, Vinyl sounds better than it has any right to.....if you get a chance to hear a modern, well set up TT, you might just be surprised at how good "distortion" can sound.

Saying all that, I got rid well over 20 years ago and would never go back.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Going back to the OP album, I did play it on Deezer and for me its not the best jazz  album I heard, sound quality wise and jazz is usually pretty good, so maybe its not a good comparison. Not really into modern jazz but do have the odd ECM which sound great on  cd, like Tord Gustavsen Trio _ Being There, I don't have a working TT at the moment so I can't compare any LP and cds. I do have some Wynton Marsalis as well. For rock I would be trying something like Steely Dan - Aja, most of the cds are meant to pretty good.  

 

The problem i had with LPs was all the other noises you get apart from the music and I got fed taking albums back because there were damaged, scratched mainly and that was before cds came out. The other problem I have now is the price of LPs, £15-£20 when you can get cds for about £1.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

matt49 wrote:

stevebrock wrote:

Lorde - Pure Heroine is a modern recording

On vinyl it sounds fantastic & wipes the floor with the CD

That CD is horribly compressed, so you're not really comparing like with like.

This is one of the problems with the "debate". The comparison of digital and vinyl has two aspects: the medium and the playback system. On paper, CD is a superior medium, but in fact many CDs of the last fifteen years have been mastered to sound loud and their dynamic range has been compressed. So LPs may well in some cases have the edge.

A further complication is that when people talk about "music", what they often in fact mean is "the music I listen to". So someone who mainly listens to rock/pop of the last 15 years may well decide that vinyl is superior because s/he is comparing tolerably well mastered LPs with horribly compressed CDs. On the other hand, someone who (like me) mainly listens to classical music won't have this experience at all: the dynamic range of classical recordings is almost always better on CD than on LP. Classical CDs are mastered to appeal to people like us who have decent hi-fi systems, so they're not nastily compressed. (As it happens, there is very little classical stuff on the DR Database, but what there is clearly shows that classical CDs aren't spoilt by compression.)

Of course, you may well say: "why should I care if the CD is compressed or not? The LP sounds better and that's all that matters." But that argument doesn't work for me. I have the choice: well mastered CD or well mastered vinyl? And that's why cost becomes such an important factor for me. I can rip the CD losslessly and play it on a digital front end that cost me £300, and it sounds fantastic. Or I can play an LP on a TT costing an arm and a leg, and it may or may not sound as good or better.

Matt

 

 

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

 

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

stevebrock wrote:

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

that's a bit high and mighty don't you think?  not all cd's are like that and by saying you don't by cd's you're missing out on a lot of good music, which is what it's all about isn't it?

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

cheeseboy wrote:

stevebrock wrote:

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

that's a bit high and mighty don't you think?  not all cd's are like that and by saying you don't by cd's you're missing out on a lot of good music, which is what it's all about isn't it?

That was exactly my point. Of course compression is a problem, but it's by no means a problem everywhere. Many CDs are well mastered and have better DR than the same recording on LP. You can check this on the DR Database. And with classical music you can pretty much guarantee the CD will have better DR than the LP.

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

Vinyl has been around for a very long time. There's plenty of well worn vinyl out there that will end up in £1 or 50p bins and many of these are readily available in any number of used vinyl stores, hence their price. Others are so obscure that there's no chance anyone will buy them, so they're reduced to peanuts in order for someone to take a punt! A CD and its case could be mint, and it'd still only sell for a quid or two. My main point is there is no value to a physical digital format, which seems really odd, as it was touted as "perfect sound forever"!

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example. 

It is understandable that those who don't like vinyl will be negative towards it, and the positive talk about it will grate on them. If that's the case, then they don't need to be part of threads like this.

same applies to camera gear. I paid £2000 for new Canon 5D in 2006 and it's worth 7 years later £350. I paid £1000 for new Mamiya 7II in 2001 and it's worth 13 years later £1200 - £1500...

true - I've spent A LOT on medium format film and processing in last 13 years but then I would never got the aesthetics I was after from digital..

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

The Lorde CD mentioned above is a cracking CD.

I did not even notice it was a bad recording as I love the music on it.........surely thats the point!!

It sounds amazing on my hifi.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Also the idea of not buying a CD as it does not keep its value is crazy. Really!!

Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value... Smile :)

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Womaz wrote:
Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value... Smile :)

Food is a consumable item and therefore has no value once purchased - a CD is re-usable physical item, so there should be some value to it. Look through your old CDs and see if there's anything worth more than £1...a CD collection isn't even worth selling nowadays as it costs you more to post it than you get for selling it. It's now become a throwaway format. I've got quite a few CDs I'd like to get shot of, but it's pointless, I've just put them in boxes in the loft. At least there is some value to vinyl that has been looked after, and even if it hasn't. Let's say you have a cvinyl and a CD copy of Ocean Colour Scene's Moseley Shoals - you can sell your CD for 1p - you can sell your vinyl copy for £50 minimum!

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

How much is a digital download worth second hand to the average collector  :?    Wink

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Couple of short vids in the mix.  :type:

 

Digital vs Analog Audio Formats in Music - NPR - guest Sean Olive from Harman International

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG7_x_x8ln4

 

Vinyl vs CD - Harbeth Audio's owner Alan A. Shaw compares 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

Womaz wrote:
Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value... Smile :)

My next door neighbour would tell you otherwise...

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RE: Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

Womaz wrote:
Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value... Smile :)

Food is a consumable item and therefore has no value once purchased - a CD is re-usable physical item, so there should be some value to it. Look through your old CDs and see if there's anything worth more than £1...a CD collection isn't even worth selling nowadays as it costs you more to post it than you get for selling it. It's now become a throwaway format. I've got quite a few CDs I'd like to get shot of, but it's pointless, I've just put them in boxes in the loft. At least there is some value to vinyl that has been looked after, and even if it hasn't. Let's say you have a cvinyl and a CD copy of Ocean Colour Scene's Moseley Shoals - you can sell your CD for 1p - you can sell your vinyl copy for £50 minimum!

 

that's a supply and demand thing though and is no different to anything else.  How many copies of Moseley Shoals were produced on vinyl compared to cd? 

Inherently because it's older, vinyl has more chance of being worth more, because chances are there are less mint versions of discs, and as they wear out, unlike cd's that number will become less.  But then again that also depends on the market and what people want.  Am sure you can pick up plenty of vinyl cheap now that will become worth more in time, and then again, it might not.  I feel it's a bit unfair to say that a 53 elvis vinyl single is worth more than a 1990's re-issue, because it's not a fair comparison.  However, give it another 50 years and are you actually going to want to play the mint edition Moseley Shoals lp you have, or are you going to play the cd?

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