This 'fills' the gaps between notes, making for a more cohesive 'whole'. The brain has to work less hard to decipher and piece together the information.
Look at equipment like Cambridge Audio's 840's and other, very good measuring stuff. All the detail you could want but somehow it doesn't come together into a musical whole (for some people). Other equipment, perhaps not so acurate measuring, sounds more cohesive.
I am broadly generalising and I myself err on the side of accuracy for preference but could it be that there can be to much detail, to much stereo separation etc?
I know where you're coming from. In the early 90's, a friend of mine asked for advice on buying a £200 hi-fi amplifier. I told him to check out the favourite (as it was then), but also check out an amp that was clearly better. He preferred the favourite, as he didn't like the separation of the instruments with the alternative. This just shows that preference plays a big part in what people like the sound of.
David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry
Vinyl now available in store!
Yes it is true, I have done it many times myself and the CDR recording of an LP sounds identical to the original LP.
I have done several blind tests so that I did not know which one I was listening to and I found it impossible to hear any difference .
In technical terms, that is impossible. I'm not saying it isn't, but bear in mind that CD has a brick wall 20kHz filter, whereas vinyl has been shown to have information up to around 60kHz.
I take it you are not familier with the concept of oversampling.......
In any case the fundamentals of vinyl and Red Book playback systems are so fundamentally different that trying to compare them in technical terms is a complete waste of time.
The problem with vinyl playback is simple, the cost.
The entry and mid priced players mentioned earlier are ok for the price, but a long, long way from what is possible and although a lot of people seem to think they have heard serious vinyl systems it is pretty clear from their comments that this really is not the case.
My last player was sold not because of the lack of dynamic range, or high levels of distortion or even background noise, it was sold because the capital investment and the running costs were just too much, simple as that.
We do so many shows in a row,
And these towns all look the same,
We just pass the time in our hotel room
And wander 'round backstage,
Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,
And we remember why we came.
This is true but unfortunately at my age I struggle to hear anything above 14KHZ even on a good day .
This chart plots the upper and lower frequencies of some common instruments and is quite interesting .
Electrocompaniet EMC1UP Cd player , EC 4.7 pre , AW120 DMB power amp , PMC PB1i speakers . Isotek Titan / Nova , Nordost SPM speaker cable , Kimber KCAG balanced interconnects .
Linn LP12 Lingo , Ittok lv3 , Lyra Lydian , EAR834P .
"Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." Albert Einstein .
saying that is that just plain old snobbery though..... a cheap turntable can sound excellent by any standard if set -up just right.
There's a flip side to the statement in bold. There are many that will be pro digital that have or have only heard or owned budget analogue sources. A turntable's quality is purely down to its fine engineering, and the higher the budget, the more accurate it will be. There are plenty who speak of turntables negatively that have only heard budget models but are comparing to highly priced digital sources.
There is the belief that the frequencies above 20kHz affect how we hear the ones below 20kHz. But that's another debate
This is a difficult thing to get across to many of todays enthusiasts.
A decent digital source is available at a pretty low cost so people, quite reasonably, see no reason to pay more. Some enthusiasts know enough about the whole 'computer audio' situation to extract very high quality sound at modest cost.
But hear is the rub, the big thing that you are rarely told, a better digital playback system does not, in the main, increase your appreciation of the music. Sure, if you analyse it certain aspects of the sound is improved, better definition, more separation etc, etc, but does it get you closer too the music? Mostly no, it does not.
This is most definitely not the case with vinyl, a better player simply gets you closer to the music, I'm not talking about the budget and mid priced players that dominate on this forum but really good players, the ones that reduce noise to irrelevance, produce all the detail, clarity and dynamic range of the best digital playback then produce the performance in a musically coherent and meaningful manner that digital playback can still not match.
Players of this stature do exist but, in the real world they are very rare, I am just pleased that, over the years, I have been able to hear some of them, (owned a couple too), and nothing else short of the real thing, comes close.
Agreed, a budget CD player can sound clean, and lack the 'noise' of an equivalently priced vinyl player, but which one would people choose? Those that choose academic usually choose it because they can't hear a pop or a crackle, whereas those who choose the vinyl do so because it sounds more like music, regardless of any shortcomings, if any.
Icon Audio ST40 III / KT88, Rega Apollo R, DAC, RS3
Rega RP6, Nagaoka MP-200, White Belt, Michell Tecnoweight, Rega Fono MM
Rega Quattro, Couple 1 & 2
This is precisely why I like the Linn DSsss (especially combined with Valves or SS Class A and the right speaker), as they (imo) draw you into the music by involving you in it........and the Klimax DS is the best I've heard.
Also, Audio Note make some great sounding CDPs (with NOS Dacs), with Pathos not being too shabby either.
DCS is an example of a brand I greatly admire, but the sound leaves me a little cold.
"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." André Gide
anoter glorious, knowledgable contribution from Davy. are you a bat-man in disguise Davy if the ultrasonic frequency extension should matter?
if anything feeding ultrasonic signal into an amp may cause it to generate more IM distortion than expected, if the amp has a slew rate not up to the task. and that IM distortion caused by ultrasonic components may actually feed into audible range if the amp is particularly poorly designed (like the ones which start to sharply roll off freq response right after 20kHz treshold). so having a brick wall right filter right above 20kHz is actually beneficial for overall better system performance. and since I'm 99% sure you can't hear anything above 18kHz I don't know how ability to reproduce 60kHz signal should matter.
Giro, InTheGroove, Digit, ClassicOne, MG12
So are you saying that that 40kHz frequency range will have no effect whatsoever on the signal? If there's any nuggets of actual fact that you can throw on the subject, or even any opinions as to why vinyl is (arguably) better than digital, we're all ears...
Oh, and Batman can't hear ultrasonics. Batman is just an ordinary man, so has normal hearing like the rest of us.
He said 'a bat-man' not 'Batman', if you really insist on being so lame.
HiFi / A/V / Bedroom
No offence taken - I don't really have a view, having never compared vinyl and digital under test conditions. What does interest me is the number of people (including friends whose views I'm reluctant to dismiss) who prefer vinyl to digital despite evidence to the contrary which I find quite persuasive. Paul McGowan is a hifi designer and enthusiast whose views should not be easily discounted. So tell me, why does a legacy device with an inferior dynamic range which with every play corrupts the vinyl on which it depends still command the loyalty of so many?
I suspect it may depend on the quality of the mastering on the CDs that they've listened to, as well as the source they have used for the comparison.
I have been lucky enough to have gone from decent TTs, to a great CDP to a very good streamer,......which has given me reasonable insight into how they all compare.
Very much to the point Cno.
The truly crazy thing is that most of the people I see and hear extolling the virtues of vinyl have pretty poor players, often third rate or worse.
My own experience was simply that the better the CD player and the better the record player the closer together they sounded in terms of sound quality.
For a brief period I was able to compare my own player, an SME20A/Red signature with the comparibly priced Wadia 860 and on some recordings the differences were actually difficult to hear, some modern, for the time, Deutsche Grammaphon DDD and DDA releases for example.
Edit for spelling.
Lol...... I think thats the reason for alot of the disagreement on this forum, some systems are just not up to the task.........
and the noise floor (hiss) on a turntable no matter how good or dear it is is what stops vinyl from being a serious contender, but if you like that sort of thing then I can see the argument from the other side.
Er no it isn't.
It is pretty easy to tell if someone has any idea what they are talking about, and in this case you have not got a clue.
High end turntables with quality vinyl can sound quite fabulous, sadly there are so few in use now that most people never get to hear them.
Players that are capable of such quality are rare and expensive, especially these days, so few people have experienced the way that a fine player deals with background noise and the other 'limitations' that are handled so poorly on lesser players.
Whattttaaaahhhhh! (sound effect from Enter the dragon - added for effect.....)
Pls spare us your snobbishness, high end turntables my eye......
So generally speaking the majority of vinyl fans would only know the sound of third rate decks, so the sound held most high is not even the sound you are speaking of is it?
when you think about it, its more a romantic imagining of what could be above and beyond those 3rd rate decks (i.e a quality cd deck)
that said a quality amp capable of delivering the signal from its source intact to speakers capable of delivering the full range of said signal to its listener - that low level hum (friction of the stylus moving along the track) is very audible.
I totally agreed with Drummerman - and personally believe it is that very hum which gives vinyl 'that sound' that many enjoy.... regardless of cost for another (older) generation, for todays generation brought up on quality digital play back will most likly tell you how 'noisy' a TT is , the better the kit the more they'll notice it too.
some of you guys......I swear.
I think many would be surprised at the lack of background noise on decks like the Rega RP3 and RP6 - great sounding decks, and not stupidly expensive either.
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