Have your say & ask the experts!

Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

120 replies [Last post]
marou's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 145

 

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/when-less-is-more-2/12290/

__________________

IPad/Vortexbox/MajikDSM/Harbeth

The_Lhc's picture
Offline
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 12591
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

The only trouble with that argument is that whilst CDs may have a dynamic range of 100dB the mastering on them causes that range to be massively reduced (the so-called "loudness wars"), so that should make those "low-level details" even more apparent than they are on vinyl.

Tear Drop's picture
Online
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 445
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

So the more you compress, the more a recording will sound like live (unamplified) music? Not in my experience. As Lhc mentioned, the loudness wars would surely make every system sound extremely natural and live. Do they? Erm...

 

There are obviously different reasons for vinyl being superior to CD.

BigH's picture
Offline
Joined: 29 Dec 2012
Posts: 3300
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

Yes most modern (last 10 years or so) cds (pop) have less DR than vinyl, jazz and classical have not been so affected by the loudness mastering thank goodness. If you look at DR database you will see jazz are often near the top at around 16-20 while most rock/pop since 2000 are about 7, vinyl is about 12. I think the top pop/rock cd is Copperhead Road at 17.

 

I think the part about live music is wrong, if you compress music it will sound less like live, ie have less dynamic range.

stevebrock's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 3632
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

Quote:

Yes most modern (last 10 years or so) cds (pop) have less DR than vinyl

Exactly, its all mastered for the iPod generation - if its mainstream its gonna sounds pants imo

 

 

__________________

Icon Audio ST40 III / KT88, Rega Apollo R, DAC, RS3

Rega RP6, Nagaoka MP-200, White Belt, Michell Tecnoweight, Rega Fono MM

Rega Quattro, Couple 1 & 2

 

 

 

 

 

Covenanter's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2012
Posts: 964
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

It is the compression.  I rarely listen to modern "pop" recordings on my hifi because I find them hard to get along with.  Adele's "21" is one of these and it sounds far better in my car because that's the type of equipemnt it is designed to sound good on!

Vinyl isn't better than CD.  However a lot of hifi enthusiasts like the sound of the distortion you get from vinyl.  Laughing

Chris

oldric_naubhoff's picture
Offline
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1134
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

marou wrote:

 

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/when-less-is-more-2/12290/

no offence mate but this article is one big load of BS. the guy is clearly clueless about what he's writing. live music has 120dB dynamic range? I'd like to see an example.

__________________

Giro, InTheGroove, Digit, ClassicOne, MG12

BigH's picture
Offline
Joined: 29 Dec 2012
Posts: 3300
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

marou wrote:

 

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/when-less-is-more-2/12290/

no offence mate but this article is one big load of BS. the guy is clearly clueless about what he's writing. live music has 120dB dynamic range? I'd like to see an example.

 

He probably means that the sound level can reach that, but yes I agree he does not seem to know what he is talking about.

marou's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 145
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

No offence taken - I don't really have a view, having never compared vinyl and digital under test conditions. What does interest me is the number of people (including friends whose views I'm reluctant to dismiss) who prefer vinyl to digital despite evidence to the contrary which I find quite persuasive. Paul McGowan is a hifi designer and enthusiast whose views should not be easily discounted. So tell me, why does a legacy device with an inferior dynamic range which with every play corrupts the vinyl on which it depends still command the loyalty of so many?

__________________

IPad/Vortexbox/MajikDSM/Harbeth

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11421
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

marou wrote:

No offence taken - I don't really have a view, having never compared vinyl and digital under test conditions. What does interest me is the number of people (including friends whose views I'm reluctant to dismiss) who prefer vinyl to digital despite evidence to the contrary which I find quite persuasive. Paul McGowan is a hifi designer and enthusiast whose views should not be easily discounted. So tell me, why does a legacy device with an inferior dynamic range which with every play corrupts the vinyl on which it depends still command the loyalty of so many?

I suspect it may depend on the quality of the mastering on the CDs that they've listened to, as well as the source they have used for the comparison.

I have been lucky enough to have gone from decent TTs, to a great CDP to a very good streamer,......which has given me reasonable insight into how they all compare.

__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

marou's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Posts: 145
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

McGowan says that a cd recording of a vinyl record is indistinguishable thus confirming there is no inherent superiority in analogue - interesting if true.

__________________

IPad/Vortexbox/MajikDSM/Harbeth

davedotco's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 2340
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

CnoEvil wrote:

marou wrote:

No offence taken - I don't really have a view, having never compared vinyl and digital under test conditions. What does interest me is the number of people (including friends whose views I'm reluctant to dismiss) who prefer vinyl to digital despite evidence to the contrary which I find quite persuasive. Paul McGowan is a hifi designer and enthusiast whose views should not be easily discounted. So tell me, why does a legacy device with an inferior dynamic range which with every play corrupts the vinyl on which it depends still command the loyalty of so many?

I suspect it may depend on the quality of the mastering on the CDs that they've listened to, as well as the source they have used for the comparison.

I have been lucky enough to have gone from decent TTs, to a great CDP to a very good streamer,......which has given me reasonable insight into how they all compare.

Very much to the point Cno.

The truly crazy thing is that most of the people I see and hear extolling the virtues of vinyl have pretty poor players, often third rate or worse.

My own experience was simply that the better the CD player and the better the record player the closer together they sounded in terms of sound quality.

For a brief period I was able to compare my own player, an SME20A/Red signature with the comparibly priced Wadia 860 and on some recordings the differences were actually difficult to hear, some modern, for the time, Deutsche Grammaphon DDD and DDA releases for example.

 

Edit for spelling.

__________________

We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

And wander 'round backstage,

Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,

And we remember why we came.

Jackson Browne

Overdose's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 Feb 2008
Posts: 3136
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

marou wrote:

No offence taken - I don't really have a view, having never compared vinyl and digital under test conditions. What does interest me is the number of people (including friends whose views I'm reluctant to dismiss) who prefer vinyl to digital despite evidence to the contrary which I find quite persuasive. Paul McGowan is a hifi designer and enthusiast whose views should not be easily discounted. So tell me, why does a legacy device with an inferior dynamic range which with every play corrupts the vinyl on which it depends still command the loyalty of so many?

Define 'so many'.

Only a very small percentage of music consumed is vinyl.

Nostalgia is your answer.

__________________

Mac mini > AVI ADM9Ts

Electro's picture
Offline
Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 993
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

marou wrote:

McGowan says that a cd recording of a vinyl record is indistinguishable thus confirming there is no inherent superiority in analogue - interesting if true.

Yes it is true, I have done it many times myself and the CDR recording of an LP sounds identical to the original LP.

I have done several blind tests so that I did not know which one I was listening to and I found it impossible to hear any difference .

 

 

__________________

Electrocompaniet EMC1UP Cd player , EC 4.8 preamp , AW180 monoblock power amps , PMC PB1i speakers .

Linn LP12 Lingo , Ittok lv3 , Lyra Lydian , EAR834P .

"Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler."     Albert Einstein .

spiny norman's picture
Offline
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 744
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

See I was reading only last night that MP3s sound better than vinyl, and that really all one needs these days is an iPod and speakerettes. I guess all those turntable designers are wasting their time, then.  rolling on the floor laughing

__________________

'And so on February 22nd 1966, at Luton airport...'

Johnno2's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 Feb 2009
Posts: 303
RE: Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

surely a cd 'rip' of a vinyl recording is only sampling the waveform with digital steps,  then converted with a dac. is some information lost? should it sound slightly less warm for example