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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

shafesk wrote:

Well I know hi-fi companies vouch for USB cables, most of them have highly revealing and hugely expensive systems through which I'm sure differences shine. I was thinking more of the Average Joe with his mid priced setup. The Vertere cables seemed to have made a differece to a modest setup but I can hardly justify spending 100 pounds on a usb cable for a 220 pound dac, I don't know if it'll make as much a difference to the HRT as a change in dac will to the setup if I get a sub 400 pound dac for instance. Surely people have tried cheaper options right?

The Vertere USB is quoted in the mag as being £65, and the system I heard it in was fairly budget......I'm not saying to buy it, only try it if you get the chance......you might be surprised (or you might not).

Cno

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

idc wrote:

If you listen to an expensive audiophile USB cable and to you it makes the sound quality better, keep it, the sound quality sounds better. Hifi and music should be a route to happiness with music and IMO anything that makes the listening experience better is worthwhile.

 

Just beware that the evidence that a USB or indeed any other cable can inherantly (as in its construction, materials used) affect SQ in any way is nil. And please do not suggest to anyone else that because it sounds better to you it is a better cable than any other USB cable.

 

 

to be honest, I try not to get bogged down with scientific evidence...I find that living with a component and getting to know what they add/subtract to/from the setup is better than reading about why and how it can make a difference. For instance, I still can't explain why spikes under my amp make it sound worse but spikes under one of my cdp improves the sound. 
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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

CnoEvil wrote:

shafesk wrote:

Well I know hi-fi companies vouch for USB cables, most of them have highly revealing and hugely expensive systems through which I'm sure differences shine. I was thinking more of the Average Joe with his mid priced setup. The Vertere cables seemed to have made a differece to a modest setup but I can hardly justify spending 100 pounds on a usb cable for a 220 pound dac, I don't know if it'll make as much a difference to the HRT as a change in dac will to the setup if I get a sub 400 pound dac for instance. Surely people have tried cheaper options right?

The Vertere USB is quoted in the mag as being £65, and the system I heard it in was fairly budget......I'm not saying to buy it, only try it if you get the chance......you might be surprised (or you might not).

Cno

After hearing today what a well priced interconnect can do to the music comparedy to a normal-priced, I would say just get an expesnive lead and try as I am sure you might be positively surprised. Make sure you can borrow or at least return with no losses...if shops are not keen in doing that I usually just let it go and look for a new supplier willing to do that 

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

CnoEvil wrote:

shafesk wrote:

Well I know hi-fi companies vouch for USB cables, most of them have highly revealing and hugely expensive systems through which I'm sure differences shine. I was thinking more of the Average Joe with his mid priced setup. The Vertere cables seemed to have made a differece to a modest setup but I can hardly justify spending 100 pounds on a usb cable for a 220 pound dac, I don't know if it'll make as much a difference to the HRT as a change in dac will to the setup if I get a sub 400 pound dac for instance. Surely people have tried cheaper options right?

The Vertere USB is quoted in the mag as being £65, and the system I heard it in was fairly budget......I'm not saying to buy it, only try it if you get the chance......you might be surprised (or you might not).

Cno

My apologies for not reading the fine print properly again....well 65 pounds seems doable, but would you prefer it to 65 pounds spent on an aftermarket mains cable? (as I don't have either)
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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

acalex wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

shafesk wrote:

Well I know hi-fi companies vouch for USB cables, most of them have highly revealing and hugely expensive systems through which I'm sure differences shine. I was thinking more of the Average Joe with his mid priced setup. The Vertere cables seemed to have made a differece to a modest setup but I can hardly justify spending 100 pounds on a usb cable for a 220 pound dac, I don't know if it'll make as much a difference to the HRT as a change in dac will to the setup if I get a sub 400 pound dac for instance. Surely people have tried cheaper options right?

The Vertere USB is quoted in the mag as being £65, and the system I heard it in was fairly budget......I'm not saying to buy it, only try it if you get the chance......you might be surprised (or you might not).

Cno

After hearing today what a well priced interconnect can do to the music comparedy to a normal-priced, I would say just get an expesnive lead and try as I am sure you might be positively surprised. Make sure you can borrow or at least return with no losses...if shops are not keen in doing that I usually just let it go and find for a new supplier willing to do that 

Hi acalex, good to hear from you. .I didn't believe in interconnects too till I heard the Belkin Pure Av range....then I stepped up to QED performance 2s so they do affect sound quality. I haven't really had high quality digital interconnects so I don't know if they do effect sound quality and that is why I'm just looking for positive experiences before I take the dive. Because chances are, with me being so anal about my hi-fi that I'll end up keeping the USB cables even if I don't hear the difference (but I'll admit to it)....don't trust myself with cash! 
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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

shafesk wrote:

acalex wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

shafesk wrote:

Well I know hi-fi companies vouch for USB cables, most of them have highly revealing and hugely expensive systems through which I'm sure differences shine. I was thinking more of the Average Joe with his mid priced setup. The Vertere cables seemed to have made a differece to a modest setup but I can hardly justify spending 100 pounds on a usb cable for a 220 pound dac, I don't know if it'll make as much a difference to the HRT as a change in dac will to the setup if I get a sub 400 pound dac for instance. Surely people have tried cheaper options right?

The Vertere USB is quoted in the mag as being £65, and the system I heard it in was fairly budget......I'm not saying to buy it, only try it if you get the chance......you might be surprised (or you might not).

Cno

After hearing today what a well priced interconnect can do to the music comparedy to a normal-priced, I would say just get an expesnive lead and try as I am sure you might be positively surprised. Make sure you can borrow or at least return with no losses...if shops are not keen in doing that I usually just let it go and find for a new supplier willing to do that 

Hi acalex, good to hear from you. .I didn't believe in interconnects too till I heard the Belkin Pure Av range....then I stepped up to QED performance 2s so they do affect sound quality. I haven't really had high quality digital interconnects so I don't know if they do effect sound quality and that is why I'm just looking for positive experiences before I take the dive. Because chances are, with me being so anal about my hi-fi that I'll end up keeping the USB cables even if I don't hear the difference (but I'll admit to it)....don't trust myself with cash! 

I know what you mean...what I usually do when I can't myself hear a difference is to take somebody who doesn't care at all about analytics and just enjoys the music and make him/her listen to a few tracks. If they can't even tell the difference than definitely is not worth the extra cash. The speaker cables and interconnects I have now are so evident that after a few seconds I could straight away say wow...thats a worthwile improvement.

I sent it back a few things alredy using this system...like power supplier for my DAC and a few cables.

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

shafesk wrote:

My apologies for not reading the fine print properly again....well 65 pounds seems doable, but would you prefer it to 65 pounds spent on an aftermarket mains cable? (as I don't have either)

I'm afraid I have no idea, as M/Cs are brand / location and system dependent......the only way is to try. There is also the subjectivety of it.....if they both bring a difference, which will you prefer.

I never like dictating to anyone what they should do, but try to throw out what I think are interesting suggestions, for them to try. After that, it's up to them.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

shafesk wrote:

idc wrote:

If you listen to an expensive audiophile USB cable and to you it makes the sound quality better, keep it, the sound quality sounds better. Hifi and music should be a route to happiness with music and IMO anything that makes the listening experience better is worthwhile.

 

Just beware that the evidence that a USB or indeed any other cable can inherantly (as in its construction, materials used) affect SQ in any way is nil. And please do not suggest to anyone else that because it sounds better to you it is a better cable than any other USB cable.

 

 

to be honest, I try not to get bogged down with scientific evidence...I find that living with a component and getting to know what they add/subtract to/from the setup is better than reading about why and how it can make a difference. For instance, I still can't explain why spikes under my amp make it sound worse but spikes under one of my cdp improves the sound. 

 

Spoken like a true audiophile. Smile

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

idc wrote:

shafesk wrote:

idc wrote:

If you listen to an expensive audiophile USB cable and to you it makes the sound quality better, keep it, the sound quality sounds better. Hifi and music should be a route to happiness with music and IMO anything that makes the listening experience better is worthwhile.

 

Just beware that the evidence that a USB or indeed any other cable can inherantly (as in its construction, materials used) affect SQ in any way is nil. And please do not suggest to anyone else that because it sounds better to you it is a better cable than any other USB cable.

 

 

to be honest, I try not to get bogged down with scientific evidence...I find that living with a component and getting to know what they add/subtract to/from the setup is better than reading about why and how it can make a difference. For instance, I still can't explain why spikes under my amp make it sound worse but spikes under one of my cdp improves the sound. 

 

Spoken like a true audiophile. Smile

So, IDC, which USB cables in the context of which systems did you hear in order to reach your definitive conclusion?

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

I came to my conclusion about cables, of all types including USB after doing some research. The full details are in my blog.

To save you some time, in summary, in part 1 I introduce the issue surrounding cables. I then looked at cable maker claims about how their cables work to affect SQ and found nothing that bears any proper scrutiny and no causal link between the known properties of cables and SQ. There is no electrical property that influences subjective differences in SQ. Part 3 is a list of blind tests. It is from a thread I have on another forum which was the first of its kind where all types of blind tests were gathered as a meta study of the subject. I found that there is a link bewteen sighted, blind comparison and ABX tests and the results. Sighted tests find differences in SQ. Blind comparison find that the differences have got smaller and are no longer related to brand, price or how a cable is made. ABX finds there is no difference in SQ between any cable. I then looked for reasons why that is an in part 4 I looked at measurements of cables and found that for digital cables length makes a difference, but not with SQ. Instead either the signal gets through or it does not not, causing it to fail. In part 5 I looked at studies on how other sense such as sight can affect hearing. There is a link between image and sound quality perception. So in part 6 I concluded that cables inherantly do not affect SQ. Instead if a person knows what they are listening to it can affect their judgement about SQ. If they do not know what they are listening to, the differences in SQ disappear.

Meanwhile I heard no difference between a cheap Sony USB, a more expensive Oehrling(?) and an unbranded one.

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

idc wrote:

Meanwhile I heard no difference between a cheap Sony USB, a more expensive Oehrling(?) and an unbranded one.

This could be put down to expectation bias! Wink Smile

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

idc wrote:

I came to my conclusion about cables, of all types including USB after doing some research. The full details are in my blog.

To save you some time, in summary, in part 1 I introduce the issue surrounding cables. I then looked at cable maker claims about how their cables work to affect SQ and found nothing that bears any proper scrutiny and no causal link between the known properties of cables and SQ. There is no electrical property that influences subjective differences in SQ. Part 3 is a list of blind tests. It is from a thread I have on another forum which was the first of its kind where all types of blind tests were gathered as a meta study of the subject. I found that there is a link bewteen sighted, blind comparison and ABX tests and the results. Sighted tests find differences in SQ. Blind comparison find that the differences have got smaller and are no longer related to brand, price or how a cable is made. ABX finds there is no difference in SQ between any cable. I then looked for reasons why that is an in part 4 I looked at measurements of cables and found that for digital cables length makes a difference, but not with SQ. Instead either the signal gets through or it does not not, causing it to fail. In part 5 I looked at studies on how other sense such as sight can affect hearing. There is a link between image and sound quality perception. So in part 6 I concluded that cables inherantly do not affect SQ. Instead if a person knows what they are listening to it can affect their judgement about SQ. If they do not know what they are listening to, the differences in SQ disappear.

Meanwhile I heard no difference between a cheap Sony USB, a more expensive Oehrling(?) and an unbranded one.

I agree with you on the concept...the reality is that once I swapped cables the differences was impossble not to notice...it has nothing to do with expectations as I am very critical about what I hear (by being an electronic engineer as a background). There was a night and day difference, this is the reality.  Suddendly I stopped complaining about how distort a few pieces could sound and just started to put one vinyl after the other to see what else I was missing.

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

CnoEvil wrote:

idc wrote:

Meanwhile I heard no difference between a cheap Sony USB, a more expensive Oehrling(?) and an unbranded one.

This could be put down to expectation bias! Wink Smile

 

Sorry, no Smile . If it has been shown that two cables have no affect on SQ and I hear no affect on SQ, then where is the expectation bias?

 

I am in effect claiming to have golden ears, but unlike the usual idea in audiophile circles as to what counts as golden ears. I cannot hear a difference between cables, so my hearing is very accurate and is unaffected by expectation bias. Therefore my hearing is better than those who claim they can hear a SQ difference. Controversial or what  :exmark:

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

acalex wrote:

......

I agree with you on the concept...the reality is that once I swapped cables the differences was impossble not to notice...it has nothing to do with expectations as I am very critical about what I hear (by being an electronic engineer as a background). There was a night and day difference, this is the reality.  Suddendly I stopped complaining about how distort a few pieces could sound and just started to put one vinyl after the other to see what else I was missing.

 

Just because you are an electronic engineer does not mean you are not affected by any type of bias. I don't think expectation bias is the best term for what audiophiles can experience when hearing differences in SQ where there should not be any. It is just we do not as yet have a commonly recognised term for such a thing. Here are studies on the senses and SQ

 

http://idc1966.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/how-do-audiophile-cables-work-part-5-in.html

 

There is one from Sennheiser and their annual report in 2010, where Heroit Watt Uni found a link between sound and taste.

 

http://www.sennheiser-annualreport.com/home/en/the_palate_has_ears.html

 

There is a link between all our senses and for audiophiles to claim hearing stands alone and so when they hear a SQ difference it is unaffected by anything else and is down to hearing alone, I am sorry, but the evidence syays otherwise.

 

I think that it is odd that there is supposedly a physical consistent element of cable construction that is completely objective, that has a subjective affect on the non physical inconsistent element that is sound quality? I also think it is odd that all different types of cable materials and construction are objectively supposed to cause subjective affects on SQ. Lastly I think it is odd that there is no correlation, let alone causal link between the objective electrical properties of cables and subjective SQ.

 

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RE: USB cables, please share your experience

idc wrote:

Sorry, no Smile . If it has been shown that two cables have no affect on SQ and I hear no affect on SQ, then where is the expectation bias?

I am in effect claiming to have golden ears, but unlike the usual idea in audiophile circles as to what counts as golden ears. I cannot hear a difference between cables, so my hearing is very accurate and is unaffected by expectation bias. Therefore my hearing is better than those who claim they can hear a SQ difference. Controversial or what  :exmark:

I was pulling your leg......I'm all to aware of your position.

Epiphanies are all well and good, but a sense of humour is essential.  Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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