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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change.

don't tell me you did this experiment yourself with your computer speakers. you just turned them around and then sit and listened what happened? ever heard about sound reflections? try to do the same experiment outside in open space (at least 10m - 15m clearance from boundaries. I know, there'll be a problem with floor distance but you can ignore this one for once) if you have long enough speaker cables. that way it's going to be much better approximation of anechoic environment than when your speakers face a wall in your room ROFL

BTW this "omnidirectionality" of small speakers in your room should tell you a word or two about how prone dome&cone speakers are to interacting with your listening space.

steve_1979 wrote:

Of course small speakers still have standing waves but it's much more of an issue with the large flat parallel surfaces that floorstanders have.

all floorstanders? for instance Sonus Faber Acalex is interested in are curved. many other speakers are tapered or also curved at the back. it's maybe only AVIs and few other British designers who are a relic of old school box speaker design with its ideal cuboid shape.

steve_1979 wrote:

What makes you think that I was talking about enclosure resonance?

Speakers that have a larger enclosure volume are able to produce lower frequencies than speakers that have a small enclosure volume. This is a fact.

be it your way. I'm not really interested speaker enclosures so I wouldn't know how speaker enclosure enhances bass output. all I know I saw many measurements of speaker enclosures and they add significantly to the bass output of a speaker. regardless be them standmount or floorstander.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

I can't be bothered to get into another pointless argument with you oldric. Smile

It's getting late and I couldn't bare to have another one of these moments so lets just agree to diagree. :cheers:

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Yup Steve:

 

"Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change."

 

That is complete twaddle. What you are hearing are reflections rather than radiation. A boxed speaker will only radiate sound omidirectionally in the low bass (Below 100Hz or so) and everthing above that will be monopole.

And dont just take manufacturers guff as gospell. They are all trying to sell you their products. If you want some real speaker theory, read up on independent sources from the internet and books.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

I can't be bothered to get into another pointless argument with you oldric. Smile

It's getting late and I couldn't bare to have another one of these moments so lets just agree to diagree. :cheers:

this is not about agreeing to disagree. this is not a dispute about personal preferences. this is about science and hard facts. I thought I'll show you some pictures too.

this is how horizontal dispersion looks like for a typical, front firing, multi-driver box speaker:

some will look slightly better (smoother transition off axis) some much worse (more lobbing). but one thing for sure. you'll see how spls diminish when moving further off axis and further up the frequency spectrum. this is certainly no omnidirectional behavior.

and now; this is how an omnidirectional speaker dissipates:

see the difference?

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-ar2-loudspeaker-measurements

 

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

steve_1979 wrote:
Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

acalex wrote:
I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff. I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

Yes you're right there cno. I stand corrected. Smile

There's more bassy classical music around than I originally thought: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/classical-music-with-bass

I still think that pop music generally sounds much more bassy than classical music though.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

www.rethm.com  97-102dB efficiency 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-ar2-loudspeaker-measurements

 

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

steve_1979 wrote:
Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

 

 

I am sorry, in no way is that dispersion omnidirectional, and remember thats only up to 180 Degrees, if they did a 360 Degree plot (which would be useless) you would see that it would drastically reduce all output below 1Khz when you get past 180 Degrees.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

hoopsontoast wrote:

I am sorry, in no way is that dispersion omnidirectional, and remember thats only up to 180 Degrees, if they did a 360 Degree plot (which would be useless) you would see that it would drastically reduce all output below 1Khz when you get past 180 Degrees.

...and as I said:

"The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz."

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Some small speaker comparison:

TAD Compact Reference CR1

 

Joseph Audio Pulsar

Harbeth P3ESR

PMC DB1i

 

ATC SCM 11

 

I could go on but none of those are much different to the Sony one posted before.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

steve_1979 wrote:
Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

 

sorry Steve. but if some 10dB dip @ 1kHz @ 90deg. is still omnidirectional to you then we must be talking about completely different matters.

BTW happy listening to your "omnidirectional" monitors sitting next to them :wave:

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Here's a little experiment that you (or anyone else who's interested) may want to try. Smile

The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes. You'll probably find that below 10kHz the sound only changes a little bit as you walk around.

Also have a listen to some big floorstanding speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes. You'll probably find that as you walk around the sound changes a bit more with the floorstanders than it did with the small standmounts.

Now I'm not saying that they're 100% perfectly omnidirectional. Of course they're not. But you'll probably find that the small standmounts sound mostly omnidirectional below 10kHz and that even with the big floorstanders the sound will still be fairly omnidirectional below 10kHz.

Go on, give it a try. You might be suprised. Smile

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:
The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes.

In fact most people can try this at home with their own speakers.* If possible move them out into the room so that they are effected less by the reflections and walk around them while listening to music.

You'll probably find that the high frequencies beam like a torch and you only need to move by a few degrees before you can hardly hear anything above 10kHz. But with the midrange and bass frequencies you'll be able to hear them from all around. The mid-range sounds will change a bit but the change is probably less than you would expect, especially if you have small standmount speakers.

 

*This probably won't work electrostatic speakers because they have a different off axis responce to enclosure type speakers.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:
The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes.

In fact most people can try this at home with their own speakers.* If possible move them out into the room so that they are effected less by the reflections and walk around them while listening to music.

You'll probably find that the high frequencies beam like a torch and you only need to move by a few degrees before you can hardly hear anything above 10kHz. But with the midrange and bass frequencies you'll be able to hear them from all around. The mid-range sounds will change a bit but the change is probably less than you would expect, especially if you have small standmount speakers.

 

*This probably won't work electrostatic speakers because they have a different off axis responce to enclosure type speakers.

 

One thing I will agree on. Dipole speakers such as open baffle speakers, Electrostatics and other panel speakers have a 'figure of 8' radiation pattern. So if I put my ears at the side of the speakers, even at high levels you hear almost nothing but room reflections.

 

Speaker Directivity

 

 

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#B

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

For a couple of days, I have tried Harbeth P3:s with my Jadis equipment. I think the bass is very nicely controlled, very different from when I am using Dynaudio speakers which isn't exactly ideal with only 30 watts. The Harbeths are great. The size and amount of deep bass suits my room. I am going to listen to other speakers aswell, hopefully also Audio Note's. Sonus Faber would be interesting to try aswell.

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