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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:
Now it's my turn to mostly agree with you.

I think that we'd better stop agreeing on things. I might get the reputation of being an audiophile. :oops: Wink

 

CnoEvil wrote:
I have never heard the above theory before, which doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Are you saying the mid-range "appears" better because its coming from a head sized object, even though it may not be. I have to say I've never found this, in fact very often I find that the mids sound better when "in balance" from a speaker with a fuller range...subjective, I know.

TBH this is only something that I've read on the AVI forum. It's been mentioned there several times by a couple of the very knowledgeable members as well as by Ashley. I think that it's to do with the way that the sound waves interact with the external shape of the enclosure as they radiate away.

From my own subjective experience standmount speakers do tend to sound more natural over the mid-range frequencies than equivalently priced floorstanders. But as I said I'm not an expert so take this with a pinch of salt. Smile

 

CnoEvil wrote:
The sub issue is not straight forward as integration can be problematical - even when you have a sub good enough for the job.

I agree. Most of the subwoofer based setups that I've heard have issues with integration - they either boom or they sound directional. This is why I mentioned AVI, Genelec and the Acousitc Energy Pro 2.1 setups because with these the integration is 100% seamless.

I have my subwoofer placed directly underneath my right ear but you can never tell which direction the bass is coming from. The integration is so good that sometimes the bass notes can even sound like they're coming from the left side of the stereo image.

 

CnoEvil wrote:
Standmounts are usually better at imaging, timing and speed. They can often sound more intimate and real due to these qualities, as one's ear and brain are more discriminating than is often realized (imo). Floorstanders do scale, but it is much harder to make a good one cheaply, due to the problems/compromises you mentioned. At equivalent money, the standmount is usually better, as the money it costs to make, goes further.

I agree again. (Doh :doh: )

 

CnoEvil wrote:
Generally speaking room size ends up being the key...for obvious reasons.

I agree. I forget to mention it but obviously the room you're listening in is an important factor to consider when picking speakers. I've never actually done it myself but I can see why auditioning speakers at home is a good idea.
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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

acalex wrote:
I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

acalex wrote:
I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff.

I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

acalex wrote:
I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff. I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

I've never actually seen a real orchestra play live (I dream of going to the Last of the Proms one day).

When listening to classical music at home though I find that most of it doesn't sound like it has much bass. Especially when compared to electronic music or music with drums.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

I've never actually seen a real orchestra play live (I dream of going the Last of the Proms one day).

When listening to classical music at home though I find that most of it doesn't sound like it has much bass. Especially when compared to electronic music or music with drums.

That is exactly the way it comes across, partly because of some of the recordings, but mostly because it takes a very expensive system to give an approximation.

If you ever get to the proms (which I hope you do), you will literally be blown away by the impact. It's as big a difference as going from a portable, to an expensive hifi system.

Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance! Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:
Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance! ;)

At least we know that it doesn't matter what mains lead he uses because they all sound the same. :poke: :twisted:

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

mmm Intresting theory...

But I was always told that standmount's ofthen sound good because it's easier to get the crosover right?

But than like mentioned there is the roomfilling factor.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:
Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance! ;)

At least we know that it doesn't matter what mains lead he uses because they all sound the same. :poke: :twisted:

Do we indeed??!! Blum 3

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

steve_1979 wrote:

I'm no expert so please take this explanation with a pinch of salt and bare in mind that I'm generalizing here. Smile

The mid-range is the most important part of the music because these are the frequencies that our ears and brains are the most sensitive to.

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us.

this is interesting. never heard of it before and I red a lot about speaker acoustic. I don't see any reason why the size of the speaker, other than it's baffle width, would matter with respect to it sounding more natural or not. it certainly has nothing to do with a speaker being head-sized ROFL take Quads for instance. nothing close to head-sized speakers but many claim they get as close to the real thing with vocals as it gets.

steve_1979 wrote:

Small speakers also have a better stereo image and they have the advantage of radiating almost omnidirectionally too.

this is total nonsense! how can conicaly shaped,forward radiating sound source be omnidirectional at the same time?! ever heard about driver beaming? if small speakers have  better imaging this is only due to them having smaller enclosure which is more difficult for us to detect enclosure reflections and thus detect speakers as the actual sound source. but again what if you don't have an enclosure, like in case of ESLs, to worry about in the first place?

steve_1979 wrote:

Big floorstanding speakers have issues with internal standing waves and the large external surfaces suffer more from cabinet edge diffraction than small speakers do.

like small speakers don't have problems with standing waves?! again ROFL for this statement.

cabinet edge diffraction has nothing to do with size of the speaker but with the shape of the enclosure (search Olson if interested) and the frequency at which you need to compensate for baffle step depends on baffle width and driver size. it doesn't matter if the enclosure is deep or shallow, tall or small.

steve_1979 wrote:

The big advantage that floorstanders do have over small standmount speakers is that they have a larger enclosure volume allowing them to reproduce deeper bass frequencies than small standmount speakers can.

what you write about here is enclosure resonance, not deep bass reproduction. deep bass comes from larger driver radiating area or higher driver excursion (but this route inevitably means higher harmonic distortion). enclosure thump is not deep bass as many people think is. but I can appreciate many people may like this quality of box speakers.

steve_1979 wrote:

By using various porting and tuning techniques it's possible to make a small speaker that sounds like it has more bass by boosting some of the mid-bass frequencies or by making them boom. But it's imposssible to make a small speaker that can produce deep bass.

at least one statement that is actually correct Smile

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

acalex wrote:

After having experienced last adventure with Rob, I am back on my road for upgrading my speakers. My dealer actually offer me a sweet deal on some ex-demo Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento...looking like brand new and coming with a full warranty...but a 20% discount!

Maybe a few months ago I would jump quickly on the offer without thinking twice...today I am kind of wondering if this would be a wise move. I am trying to understand if this could be my ultimate speakers or I will soon regret haveing spent this amount of money on a standmount speaker...

I mean I love those speakers and I think they are a great match with my Jadis...but not sure if I won't be better off with nice floorstanders (new Venere model from SF are actually pretty good, not tried yet though)

Hope to see some nice thoughts and insights Wink

hi Acalex. I say you should go and try out some panel speakers. if only to discard that option as a valid one for you. try to audition Magnepan MG3.7 (so far I could only find good opinions about them on the net) or Quads ESLs, as those are definitely valve amp friendly. BTW there's been a update on Quad ESLs recently and the new ones are marked 2912 and 2812.

you haven't listened to my advice the first time, re: Pathos amps. and I heard you planning a change to a Pathos some time ago :). try panels this time before you commit to buying anything. you've got nothing to loose really and a lot to gain.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Well, a lot of insights here, it will take me some time to read and understand all of them!

I guess I need to start taking home some of the speakers and try in a familiar environment, it would be difficult to find all brand I would like to try available for home demos, but I least I will make sure it's exactly what I like.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

If I where you I would try some speakers with a higher efficienty. see how it sound's

An as you know I'm always in for the expiriences Wink

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

I found this which is quite interesting about classical instruments:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html

Certainly you can get impressive bass from an orchestra.  I remember one particular Prom where we sat in the "orchestra seats" behind the double basses and you could feel those in your stomach.  The thing with classical music is that it isn't thump thump bass.  It's more subtle.

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us.

this is interesting. never heard of it before and I red a lot about speaker acoustic. I don't see any reason why the size of the speaker, other than it's baffle width, would matter with respect to it sounding more natural or not. it certainly has nothing to do with a speaker being head-sized ROFL


As I said earlier, it's something that Ashley James and a couple of other people on the AVI forum said. I've never read it in any speaker design books either though.

 

 

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

Small speakers also have a better stereo image and they have the advantage of radiating almost omnidirectionally too.

this is total nonsense! how can conicaly shaped,forward radiating sound source be omnidirectional at the same time?! ever heard about driver beaming? if small speakers have better imaging this is only due to them having smaller enclosure which is more difficult for us to detect enclosure reflections and thus detect speakers as the actual sound source.

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change.

 

 

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

Big floorstanding speakers have issues with internal standing waves and the large external surfaces suffer more from cabinet edge diffraction than small speakers do.

like small speakers don't have problems with standing waves?! again ROFL for this statement.

Of course small speakers still have standing waves but it's much more of an issue with the large flat parallel surfaces that floorstanders have.

 

 

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

steve_1979 wrote:

The big advantage that floorstanders do have over small standmount speakers is that they have a larger enclosure volume allowing them to reproduce deeper bass frequencies than small standmount speakers can.

what you write about here is enclosure resonance, not deep bass reproduction. deep bass comes from larger driver radiating area or higher driver excursion (but this route inevitably means higher harmonic distortion). enclosure thump is not deep bass as many people think is. but I can appreciate many people may like this quality of box speakers.

What makes you think that I was talking about enclosure resonance?

Speakers that have a larger enclosure volume are able to produce lower frequencies than speakers that have a small enclosure volume. This is a fact.

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Covenanter wrote:

I found this which is quite interesting about classical instruments:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html

Interesting link. Thanks for posting. Smile

The only piece of classical music that I listen to at home that gets my subwoofer flapping is this:

Johann Sebastian Bach – Toccata & Fugue D Minor, BWV. 565

 

Could anyone give me an example of another piece of classical music that has room shaking bass like pop music does?

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