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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

acalex wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

acalex wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

acalex wrote:

Well, I guess Vertere is not interested anymore as they didn't contact me again after my last mail. Pity as it would have been interesting to compare and I was ready to depart with the money...a missed opportunity!

On the good side, Black ravioli distributor called saying that they will contact Francis to try and ship a few demo products. I explained to them what I am looking for and the type of equipment I have...let's see how they react.

I will report my findings of course! Wink

-4 days to the Akurate!  :cheers:

 

At the risk of interfering, I have just rung Vertere.

If you can send an email to ad@vertereacoustics.com and explain your situation again, he will see what he can do. Title the email "CnoEvil", and say that it is a follow up from my call. State where you are, what you want to achieve and what has happened so far. He gets about 200 emails a day and yours is probably in a queue somewhere. He said he will keep an eye out for the Cnoevil title and that your distributer is a sound guy, who may not fully understand where you are coming from.

Let me know how it goes....I'll see this happens, even if it kills me.

Thanks a lot my friend, really appreciate. I will send an email to them tomorrow morning and see how they will react.

In the meantime yesterday I realised that the Jadis just inverst phase...so I had to invert the loudspeaker cables...swapped this morning and started playing and did like this  :O

 

I'm confused, have you been listening to your speakers out of phase all this time?

 

Yes  :shifty:

The Sonus Faber only for 2 weeks though. Nobody told me the Jadis inverts phase, I just found out when my dealer gave me the box and the manual of the amplifier...

 

 

:O And all the time you had the jadis with the MAs? In retrospect, how could you possibly make all those fine judgments about DACs, tubes and cables?

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers RE: Tube-friendly speakers

BenLaw wrote:

acalex wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

acalex wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

acalex wrote:

Well, I guess Vertere is not interested anymore as they didn't contact me again after my last mail. Pity as it would have been interesting to compare and I was ready to depart with the money...a missed opportunity!

On the good side, Black ravioli distributor called saying that they will contact Francis to try and ship a few demo products. I explained to them what I am looking for and the type of equipment I have...let's see how they react.

I will report my findings of course! Wink

-4 days to the Akurate!  :cheers:

 

At the risk of interfering, I have just rung Vertere.

If you can send an email to ad@vertereacoustics.com and explain your situation again, he will see what he can do. Title the email "CnoEvil", and say that it is a follow up from my call. State where you are, what you want to achieve and what has happened so far. He gets about 200 emails a day and yours is probably in a queue somewhere. He said he will keep an eye out for the Cnoevil title and that your distributer is a sound guy, who may not fully understand where you are coming from.

Let me know how it goes....I'll see this happens, even if it kills me.

Thanks a lot my friend, really appreciate. I will send an email to them tomorrow morning and see how they will react.

In the meantime yesterday I realised that the Jadis just inverst phase...so I had to invert the loudspeaker cables...swapped this morning and started playing and did like this  :O

 

I'm confused, have you been listening to your speakers out of phase all this time?

 

Yes  :shifty:

The Sonus Faber only for 2 weeks though. Nobody told me the Jadis inverts phase, I just found out when my dealer gave me the box and the manual of the amplifier...

 

 

:O And all the time you had the jadis with the MAs? In retrospect, how could you possibly make all those fine judgments about DACs, tubes and cables?

+1

Main system: Musical Fidelity AMS 35i / Focal 1028be / Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP / MIT AVt MA / Matrix 12 xlr cables

Bedroom: Laptop(Qobuz) / Chord gem / Rega Brio-r / KEF LS50 / TQ black

 

 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

BenLaw wrote:

O And all the time you had the jadis with the MAs? In retrospect, how could you possibly make all those fine judgments about DACs, tubes and cables?

I have never assessed kit with speakers out of phase.....but in a room with acoustic problems like "boomy bass", it might mask the lack of bass. The imaging would be fecked up, especially in the sweet spot, but if all the testing was done like this, it would probably be a consistant baseline in which to assess differences, which should still be apparant (imo)......if anything any differences will now be far more dramatic, now that the phase is corrected (along with a possibly overpowering bass), but that remains to be seen.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

O And all the time you had the jadis with the MAs? In retrospect, how could you possibly make all those fine judgments about DACs, tubes and cables?

I have never assessed kit with speakers out of phase.....but in a room with acoustic problems like "boomy bass", it might mask the lack of bass. The imaging would be fecked up, especially in the sweet spot, but if all the testing was done like this, it would probably be a consistant baseline in which to assess differences, which should still be apparant (imo)......if anything any differences will now be far more dramatic, now that the phase is corrected (along with a possibly overpowering bass), but that remains to be seen.

 

Okaay.....

 

Well lesson one is: always read the manual! 

 

Lesson two is: if one's listening is not acute enough yet to tell speakers are out of phase, perhaps one should hold back on spending thousands on stands, interconnects of various kinds, mains conditioning and anti-reverberation add ons. I don't say this to take the p*** Acalex, as you're a very genuine guy and your experiences and posts are endlessly fascinating, but I have worried that you're spiralling into spending a lot of money for something ephemeral and possibly imaginary, and this rather bolsters that suspicion. At the least, I would spend a few months - a year listening to a marvellous amp - speaker combination in phase and with no fancy after market components. 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

BenLaw wrote:

Okaay.....

Well lesson one is: always read the manual! 

Lesson two is: if one's listening is not acute enough yet to tell speakers are out of phase, perhaps one should hold back on spending thousands on stands, interconnects of various kinds, mains conditioning and anti-reverberation add ons. I don't say this to take the p*** Acalex, as you're a very genuine guy and your experiences and posts are endlessly fascinating, but I have worried that you're spiralling into spending a lot of money for something ephemeral and possibly imaginary, and this rather bolsters that suspicion. At the least, I would spend a few months - a year listening to a marvellous amp - speaker combination in phase and with no fancy after market components. 

Alex will no doubt answer for himself.

TBF He has never put himself up to be an expert and is gathering exprience as he goes.

It is an interesting question as to whether a really good system still sounds good enough when out of phase, to fool someone who has never experienced it. 

Your points are very valid though, and the gains need to assessed in the light of the value for money....and there is no rush. It's vital that Rob and anyone else in the vicinity, is there to add validity to the findings., 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Well, we can at least agree there's no rush. I know he doesn't say he's an expert, and as I say I don't want to take the p*** or embarrass him in any way. 

 

You're a very genuine and well meaning chap yourself Cno, I just feel that sometimes your boundless enthusiasm for all things hifi myth can sometimes get the less experienced a little carried away. You won't agree with that I'm sure, but I hope you recognise I'm also being well meaning to Acalex and that, even if he ultimately concludes you're right and I'm an idiot, a little patience will be no bad thing, for wallet or musical enjoyment. 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

BenLaw wrote:

You're a very genuine and well meaning chap yourself Cno, I just feel that sometimes your boundless enthusiasm for all things hifi myth can sometimes get the less experienced a little carried away. You won't agree with that I'm sure, but I hope you recognise I'm also being well meaning to Acalex and that, even if he ultimately concludes you're right and I'm an idiot, a little patience will be no bad thing, for wallet or musical enjoyment. 

It's very hard to assess whether the effect I am having is for good or ill, so I try to ameliorate my opinion as much as I can with, "don't take my word for it, and go and listen for yourself"....... or some such phrase. I hope that I have done more good than harm with my recommendations / advice, while I've been a member here.

All I can do, is pass on what I have found over the 37 years I've been doing this to those who are interested. Luckily, there are always those who will put up the robust opposing argument, so it's up to the person to decide for themselves.

Your point is taken in the "well meaning" spirit that it's intended, and I have no problem with anyone advising caution......and I don't believe Alex will either.

That all said, I'm fascinated in what he is going to find!  :shifty:

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

You're a very genuine and well meaning chap yourself Cno, I just feel that sometimes your boundless enthusiasm for all things hifi myth can sometimes get the less experienced a little carried away. You won't agree with that I'm sure, but I hope you recognise I'm also being well meaning to Acalex and that, even if he ultimately concludes you're right and I'm an idiot, a little patience will be no bad thing, for wallet or musical enjoyment. 

It's very hard to assess whether the effect I am having is for good or ill, so I try to ameliorate my opinion as much as I can with, "don't take my word for it, and go and listen for yourself"....... or some such phrase. I hope that I have done more good than harm with my recommendations / advice, while I've been a member here.

 

I'm sure you have. Particularly where speakers are concerned, where there can be stark differences in presentation, your proffering of a range of options I'm sure is very useful. (Tho you almost never suggest ATC  Wink )

 

However, on the more controversial components (those with no objective explanation for or demonstration of differences) I feel enthusiasm from people such as yourself can, even with the appropriate caveat, lead the less experienced into fooling themselves. I am very skeptical Acalex could have made these sensitive judgments when listening through out of phase speakers, so I feel that may be what has happened here. 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

BenLaw wrote:

However, on the more controversial components (those with no objective explanation for or demonstration of differences) I feel enthusiasm from people such as yourself can, even with the appropriate caveat, lead the less experienced into fooling themselves. I am very skeptical Acalex could have made these sensitive judgments when listening through out of phase speakers, so I feel that may be what has happened here. 

Now the system is in phase, Alex should be able to confirm whether the differences exist....and despite your scepticism, cabling can have quite a marked effect. I've heard it after all!  :twisted:  :silenced:

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

O And all the time you had the jadis with the MAs? In retrospect, how could you possibly make all those fine judgments about DACs, tubes and cables?

I have never assessed kit with speakers out of phase.....but in a room with acoustic problems like "boomy bass", it might mask the lack of bass. The imaging would be fecked up, especially in the sweet spot, but if all the testing was done like this, it would probably be a consistant baseline in which to assess differences, which should still be apparant (imo)......if anything any differences will now be far more dramatic, now that the phase is corrected (along with a possibly overpowering bass), but that remains to be seen.

Yes...indeed the all assesment was done like that so for me the baseline was always the same. Don't get me wrong, the difference is not night and day but since I know now my system very well I could still spot a difference. 

As Cno correctly said, the "bass" problem which was partially tamed when swapping cables with Siltech in the wrong configuration (out of phase) now is again back, especially when using the Siltech on the phonostage

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

I think I have to stop all right there guys, have you ever tried to swith the phase of your speakers? Ask somebody to do that and you will see it's not at all evident to recognize...especially for a guy with no experience at all who does not know what a "out of phase" effect is. Everybody who says can spot straight away with no doubts speakers which are out of phase I think is not telling the all true...as we made the test with a dealer having 40 years of experience himself and he was able to spot difference on a very transparent system 2 out of 3 times. Me and Rob (both present) never heard a difference.

Now, back to the other topic, I don't feel I rushed in any thing at all and Cno has no responsibility whatsoever in pushing me to spend more on exotic components (do I have any exotic component?!?) In the end I haven't buy anything Cno suggested  ROFL but demoed a lot before departing with cash. He gave me a great advice to understand how a sinergy is important and I never felt anything he said wasn't true.

In the end I bought a Jadis as I was so taken by the romanticism of the presentation that couldn't forget when compared to muscles of AMS...and plus I bought exactly the same equipment I have heard at the dealer's site (I guess it was with the correct phase  :O). Regarding speakers I was seduced by the brand (also italian so why not) and couldn't look at other speakers anymore. In the end the effect was amazing and I am glad I bought my kit which I am enjoying so much.

For the cables, I am sorry people insisting saying there is no scientific proof, it is so evident the difference they made (out of phase or in phase it does not matter) that I will still be looking for the perfect match, especially now.

I really would hope there were more people like Cno who really brings something to the forum, I am here where I am today (also in terms of competences) as he gave me the enthousiasm to go out and experience myself instead of doing as most of the people seem to do, reading a lot of reviews, buying 5 stars blind and not being happy about that in the end. 

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

However, on the more controversial components (those with no objective explanation for or demonstration of differences) I feel enthusiasm from people such as yourself can, even with the appropriate caveat, lead the less experienced into fooling themselves. I am very skeptical Acalex could have made these sensitive judgments when listening through out of phase speakers, so I feel that may be what has happened here. 

Now the system is in phase, Alex should be able to confirm whether the differences exist....and despite your scepticism, cabling can have quite a marked effect. I've heard it after all!  :twisted:  :silenced:

 

Have been playing yesterday all the time with the "correct" configuration and the evidences are even bigger. Swapped cables a few times and let my girlfriend judge without knowing which cable was were and she could spot all the time the different cofiguration (Siltech and Black Mamba on phonostage and amp) and 100% of the times she preferred the Siltech on the phonostage as it brings much more clarity.

In terms of quality, they are the same range so I don't think the Black Mamba would be much better than the Siltech power chord. Have you tried the Siltech btw?

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

Now I am wondering...was it really a phase problem? As I could always here the image and the sound coming from between the speakers. 

I had connected plus of speakers (red terminal) with red terminal on amplifier using the "red loudspeaker cable". Same for black, on both speakers of course. 

Then I simply put the red cable into the blac connector on amplifier, on both sides. So now I have the red cable which starts in the red terminal on speakers and ends on black terminal on amplifier. Would that be an out of phase problem?

Thanks

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

acalex wrote:

In terms of quality, they are the same range so I don't think the Black Mamba would be much better than the Siltech power chord. Have you tried the Siltech btw?

I have no easy access to Siltech cables......I'm more familiar with Cardas, TCI, Atlas, Furutech, Clearer Audio and Titan Audio.

Which mains cable sounds better on the Amp?

Keeping to one brand of cable can roll out a consistant sonic benefit, and add a bit more with each replacement (though the gains usually get a bit less with each subsequent insert).

I could never hear much difference with a M/C on my MDS, so I will be interested to see how you get on with your ADS/1.

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Tube-friendly speakers

CnoEvil wrote:

acalex wrote:

In terms of quality, they are the same range so I don't think the Black Mamba would be much better than the Siltech power chord. Have you tried the Siltech btw?

I have no easy access to Siltech cables......I'm more familiar with Cardas, TCI, Atlas, Furutech, Clearer Audio and Titan Audio.

Which mains cable sounds better on the Amp?

Keeping to one brand of cable can roll out a consistant sonic benefit, and add a bit more with each replacement (though the gains usually get a bit less with each subsequent insert).

I could never hear much difference with a M/C on my MDS, so I will be interested to see how you get on with your ADS/1.

 

On my amp I couldn't spot too much difference between Siltech and Black Mamba. The first being probably a bit more vivid than the latter (not sure the term is correct). I have the impression that introducing Siltech in the system left the presentation very relaxing and romantic as I like but removed a little bit of "darkness" and introducing some sparkle which is very pleasant. It might be less cosy than it was but a bit more involving...not sure I express myself well

Just adding that I haven't yet bought anything (not even the speakers) but I am still in the trial process which che dealer knows can last for months...I mean speakers I will buy for sure as I already committed myself...but for cables I am still in the experimentation phase...

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