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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

CnoEvil wrote:

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

none of the above.

I appreciate everybody's input, but almost all the answers are for a question I haven't asked.

I'm well aware of the advantages of a sealed cabinet and even Electrostatic/Maggie type panels, but am less sure about the 3 types I've mentioned in the title.....eg. Does the TL type design have a clear advantage, or is a lot of it to do with "marketing  mystique".

Don't mean to sound ungrateful for input so far

Cno

In my opinion and  based only on many years of listening to different types of speaker I would say that all different designs and types of speaker have their individual strengths and weaknesses but ultimately I have chosen speakers using PMC's version of a transmission line as the best all round compromise that suits my idea of what a HiFi system should do .

 I think this is because they seem to produce the most life like deep textured bass with real pitch accuracy that does not overwhelm the rest of the music and you can also feel it as well as hear it. 

Bass instruments sound like they are part of the music contained within a large sound stage and can be identified in the same way as all the other instruments with their own individual character and separate space much more like real bass instruments playing as part of a real live performance .

When listening to a well recorded piece of music especially a good live recording this real depth and cleanliness in the bass frequencies seems to free up the mid and top frequencies to create a wonderful deep and wide stage behind the speakers that can often appear to be many meters deep and wide , the wall behind the speakers disappears completely and the bass instruments are an equally identifiable part of the illusion in their own space and in proportion to the rest of the instruments .

So in my opinion modern transmission line speakers do have a real and clear advantage , but I am sure many others will disagree. Smile

I am sorry that I can't give you a more technical explanation but I have done my best to explain what my transmission line speakers do for me that other types of speaker don't seem to be able to . Smile

 

 

 

 

 Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP , Monarchy Audio DIP, Electrocompaniet ECD 1 dac , EC4.8 preamp , 2x AW180 monoblock power amps , PMC PB1i speakers . Thousands of Cd's .

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

With Linn Isobariks and Saras it's not particularly the isobaric design that gives amplifiers grief, it's the fact that they use two 8ohm (with dips below 8 ohms) drivers wired in parallel. In general amplifiers, especially valve ones, prefer speaker loads that have impedances that stay above 6 ohms. The relatively inefficient KEF bass drivers don't help either.

 

There are lots of ported designs that gives amps a hard time too because of wired in parallel drivers and low efficiency. Or the use of single 4 ohm mid-bass drivers.

 

It's quite possible to design an isobaric speaker with a relatively benign amplifier load.

 

If you're going to use multiple drivers and want to give your amps an easier time use two 16 ohm drivers wired in parallel, or use four 8 ohm drivers wired in parallel and in series. It's simple schoolboy electronics, with the aim to get 8 ohms or higher.

 

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

Electro wrote:

So in my opinion modern transmission line speakers do have a real and clear advantage , but I am sure many others will disagree. Smile

I am sorry that I can't give you a more technical explanation but I have done my best to explain what my transmission line speakers do for me that other types of speaker don't seem to be able to . Smile

I asked for insight, so thank you for that.

Bass that has impressed me has come from the Kef Ref 205/207 and the bigger Focal Utopias. 

I really like the way the Kefs have realistic snap and attack while sounding natural, without getting harsh, on the end of a Class A amp....but it is a very well thought out and implemented design.

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

gregvet wrote:

I think most Isobarik designs tend to be fairly difficult loads, due to the doubling up of the drivers (I think there are more complex reasons too, i just dont understand them  :oops: )

The Totem Mani-2's are supposed to be pretty well sorted sound speakers that sound great, using the Isobarik loading design. Maybe it works better for standmounted speakers than floor standers?

As an aside, in my experience the bass from transmission line speakers can sound quite different to rear ported speakers, although I dont fully understand why. IMO a well sorted transmission line speaker (IE PMC for eg) can have fantastic bass quality and quantity, from a relatively small enclosure. They are often easier to postition that rear ported speakers too  Smile

TLs do seem to allow a big sound from a slim cabinet.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

The problem that I have with the transmission line speakers that I've heard is in the bass timing. There are certain bass frequencies where the bass has lagged behind the rest of the music. It's a smearing of the bass signal, especially on repetitive bass transients. It becomes more of an issue at generous to loud volumes.

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

Thanks for your insightful posts lindsayt. Particularly on Isobaric speakers. I'd wondered about them but never heard them or knew much about them.

Stuff.

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

IME  tl is more on the cleaner, taut ,and agile response..but it sometimes it lacks the "oomph"  and full bodied other may offer. sorry YMMV:)

Main system: MF AMS 35i / Focal 1028be / Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP / MIT cables

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

I could'nt agree more to the past post on how each was implemented (TL,Isobaric etc...)

 

Main system: MF AMS 35i / Focal 1028be / Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP / MIT cables

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

CnoEvil wrote:

Electro wrote:

So in my opinion modern transmission line speakers do have a real and clear advantage , but I am sure many others will disagree. Smile

I am sorry that I can't give you a more technical explanation but I have done my best to explain what my transmission line speakers do for me that other types of speaker don't seem to be able to . Smile

I asked for insight, so thank you for that.

Bass that has impressed me has come from the Kef Ref 205/207 and the bigger Focal Utopias. 

I really like the way the Kefs have realistic snap and attack while sounding natural, without getting harsh, on the end of a Class A amp....but it is a very well thought out and implemented design.

 

I really must try to listen to some of the new KEF reference range seeing as they seem to be so universally praised :), I have never seen a bad word written about them although I doubt that I will be tempted away from my PMC's but you never know Wink

I heard some TL's made by Jean Marie Renaud a few years ago and although they sounded different to the PMC's they had similar effortless natural bass qualities , they were lovely speakers .

Even though I tried to explain in my last post why I prefer transmission line type speakers I forgot the most important reason and that is the ability to reproduce bass sounds that are directional  . Why do people say that bass is not directional  :O

When listening to live music it is easy to hear where  a double bass or bass drum is placed on the stage with your eyes closed , but when listening to most speakers it is not possible to do the same thing.

But transmission line speaker seem to be able to reproduce this directional bass information easily and in my opinion it makes reproduced music sound so much more realistic .

 

 

 

 

 Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP , Monarchy Audio DIP, Electrocompaniet ECD 1 dac , EC4.8 preamp , 2x AW180 monoblock power amps , PMC PB1i speakers . Thousands of Cd's .

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

Electro wrote:

Even though I tried to explain in my last post why I prefer transmission line type speakers I forgot the most important reason and that is the ability to reproduce bass sounds that are directional  . Why do people say that bass is not directional  :O

Maybe it's "sub bass" that's non directional ie. That covered by the sub.

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

lindsayt wrote:

The problem that I have with the transmission line speakers that I've heard is in the bass timing. There are certain bass frequencies where the bass has lagged behind the rest of the music. It's a smearing of the bass signal, especially on repetitive bass transients. It becomes more of an issue at generous to loud volumes.

If bass timing was a problem I suggest the speakers you heard were not particularly well sorted.

I have never experienced that with ones I have heard or from the ones I currently own.

There is no logical reason why this effect should get worse with increased volume.

 

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

Electro wrote:

 I think this is because they seem to produce the most life like deep textured bass with real pitch accuracy that does not overwhelm the rest of the music and you can also feel it as well as hear it.

you can always read or hear people praising bass from this or that speaker somewhere along those lines (I especially like "gut wrenching bass" :)). can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel? a lightning stoke once some 200m away from me and I couldn't feel anything (I certainly heard A LOT). standing next to decently sized waterfall you'll not feel anything either. well, maybe except for sprinkling water drops. and also full blown philharmonic orchestra during crescendo did never make me feel anything...

Electro wrote:

to create a wonderful deep and wide stage behind the speakers that can often appear to be many meters deep and wide

this is yet another cliche about some speakers that I don't really understand why some people really crave and rave about. what's realistic about listening to a band and having an impression they are evenly spaced along the length of a tunnel? is this really a life-like impression? if so, I never actually experienced such in real life. I never experienced a feeling that a few people gathered within 1m distance on Z axis seem to be much further behind and in front of each other. they were always exactly where they should be.

sorry Electro. this all seems like critisising you. but it's not my intention. I just used your quotes.

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

Electro wrote:

Even though I tried to explain in my last post why I prefer transmission line type speakers I forgot the most important reason and that is the ability to reproduce bass sounds that are directional  . Why do people say that bass is not directional  :O

this is because it's not bass that makes you hear where double bass or percussion bass drum standing but higher in frequency harmonics. CNO pointed out correctly that it's for deep bass frequencies that aren't directorial.

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

oldric_naubhoff wrote:

Electro wrote:

 I think this is because they seem to produce the most life like deep textured bass with real pitch accuracy that does not overwhelm the rest of the music and you can also feel it as well as hear it.

you can always read or hear people praising bass from this or that speaker somewhere along those lines (I especially like "gut wrenching bass" :)). can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel? a lightning stoke once some 200m away from me and I couldn't feel anything (I certainly heard A LOT). standing next to decently sized waterfall you'll not feel anything either. well, maybe except for sprinkling water drops. and also full blown philharmonic orchestra during crescendo did never make me feel anything...

Electro wrote:

to create a wonderful deep and wide stage behind the speakers that can often appear to be many meters deep and wide

this is yet another cliche about some speakers that I don't really understand why some people really crave and rave about. what's realistic about listening to a band and having an impression they are evenly spaced along the length of a tunnel? is this really a life-like impression? if so, I never actually experienced such in real life. I never experienced a feeling that a few people gathered within 1m distance on Z axis seem to be much further behind and in front of each other. they were always exactly where they should be.

sorry Electro. this all seems like critisising you. but it's not my intention. I just used your quotes.

There is no need to worry I don't take your points of view as any sort of criticism Smile

I can only think that we both perceive music in very different ways :?

When I go to a live performance or I listen to my HiFi system I can physically feel the music through my body in the form of vibrations that change with pitch and volume  , in fact I think if I was to put bungs in my ears so that I was unable to hear the music I could still tell you the title of the song that was being played as long as it was familiar to me .

Next time you listen to music try resting you finger tips lightly on a surface next to you and see if you can feel the vibrations that I speak of . If you can feel them listen to the peak sounds of the music and see if the the music and the vibrations coincide . If they do this is a very basic form of what I am talking about .

 I think that some people are completely unable to perceive a stereo image with width and depth .

With some large scale recordings it is like sitting five to ten rows back with the performers on the stage behind the speakers and the music sounds as wide and deep as the physical stage itself . Some other simpler recordings may only have one person on stage performing but it is quite easy to hear the sounds reverberating around the venue giving the impression of a small scale performance in a large space ..

Some recordings give up very little spacial information at all so they sound like the performers are between the speaker with no impression of the space they are playing in , I have found that many recordings on the Naim label are like this .

You mention not being able to feel close lightning strikes , this really shocks and surprises me  , close lightning strikes have to be one of the most physical things I have ever felt, the noise seem to vibrate every cell in my body with that initial massive pressure wave followed by the rolling decay of the thunder vibrates the air in my lungs and I find the way the ultra low frequencies bounce and reflect from different structures around the area very pleasurable , I adore the sound and feel of rolling thunder  .

I guess it just goes to show how differently each individual person perceives sound . Smile

 

 

 

 

 Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP , Monarchy Audio DIP, Electrocompaniet ECD 1 dac , EC4.8 preamp , 2x AW180 monoblock power amps , PMC PB1i speakers . Thousands of Cd's .

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RE: Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

FWIW. With certain recordings and bass-driven music, with my speakers, I can physically feel the beat.

My sub can pressurise the room to the point I feel ill/queasy....can go to 12 Hz though.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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