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CnoEvil's picture
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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

In case it's of interest, here is HFW's description of Damping Factor, and how the relationship between Amp and Speakers effects the quality of the bass: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/149-damping-factor.html

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

Glad someone has brought this up because it has mystified me for a long time. Timing in music is a very well defined thing, when it goes wrong, my goodness it sounds horrible - just listen to x-factor hopefulls singing behind the beat (then to be described as the greatest talent in music since forever by Mr. Cowell). 

The reviewers are trying to descibe something. Timing to me seems to be a very misleading and inadequate term for it. But I'm screwed if I know exactly what they are on about - dynamics maybe? I have a little sympathy for the writers, but the descent into nonsense can be painful. 

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

CnoEvil wrote:
In case it's of interest, here is HFW's description of Damping Factor, and how the relationship between Amp and Speakers effects the quality of the bass: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/149-damping-factor.html

But damping factor is not correlated to amplifier power.

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

NHL wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:
In case it's of interest, here is HFW's description of Damping Factor, and how the relationship between Amp and Speakers effects the quality of the bass: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/149-damping-factor.html

But damping factor is not correlated to amplifier power.

I didn't mean to imply that it was.......just as well, as my amp is only 35W into 8 Ohms.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

Yes I may have caused that confusion earlier when I talked about 'more powerful amplifiers'. But yes, it's damping factor that's important IIRC. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that it's effect is overstated though.

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

CnoEvil wrote:

NHL wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:
In case it's of interest, here is HFW's description of Damping Factor, and how the relationship between Amp and Speakers effects the quality of the bass: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/149-damping-factor.html

But damping factor is not correlated to amplifier power.

I didn't mean to imply that it was.......just as well, as my amp is only 35W into 8 Ohms.

Have a similiar low spec amp,

IMHO the pre amp is the most important component.

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

John Duncan wrote:
IIRC. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that it's effect is overstated though.

I think you are right in that, like other areas in Hi-Fi, it can be measured in different ways and then used as a marketing tool......though it does help to understand how the extremes (SET vs SS) may behave into certain types of speakers.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

John Duncan wrote:
Yes I may have caused that confusion earlier when I talked about 'more powerful amplifiers'. But yes, it's damping factor that's important IIRC. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that it's effect is overstated though.

Damping factor may help in determining how quickly a cone stops but getting if moving quickly is a whole different ball game. 

As I said, rise time, slew rate and feedback can help indicate how quickly an amplifier reacts to fast transients, interestingly, the more powerful the amplifier the more difficult it is to maintain a fast rise time and slew rates become even more critical.

Slew rate limiting is a clearly audible issue with some high power amplifiers but slew rates never seem to make it into manufacturers spec sheets, strange eh....... :?

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

My ol' HK6900 had Slew Rate of 280V/µs and you could sure hear and apreciate it on acoustical guitar passages. 

 

Note: Sarkasm. 

B&W CM1 + FS-700/CM + Roksan Kandy K2 BT + Native Instruments TA2 + Commodore 64 LPSU + Audioquest Type 4

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

Unless it's referring to one of those amplifiers that have a built in alarm clock then 'timing' is one of those subjective HiFi terms like "musical sounding".

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

steve_1979 wrote:

Unless it's referring to one of those amplifiers that have a built in alarm clock then 'timing' is one of those subjective HiFi terms like "musical sounding".

I can see how an element of timing could be seen as subjective, but to take an extreme example, if you paired a 6W SET amp with the wrong speakers, the bass would probably be boomy and ponderous, which would in all probability, mess with the timing in a very obvious way.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

Have to say I find the whole "timing" thing sits nicely amongst the whole "PRaT" and other fluffy hifi terminology that infects the hobby.  

 

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

steve_1979 wrote:

Unless it's referring to one of those amplifiers that have a built in alarm clock then 'timing' is one of those subjective HiFi terms like "musical sounding".

No it's not.

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

davedotco wrote:

Slew rate limiting is a clearly audible issue with some high power amplifiers but slew rates never seem to make it into manufacturers spec sheets, strange eh....... :?

Roger Sanders mentions slew rates for his amps: 500 V/mcsec for the Magtech amp. I guess that's high... Anyone heard this amp? Electro?

(I guess it could be good -- I know it's pretty expensive...)

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RE: 'Timing' (amplifiers).

Timing is a term used for transducers such as turntables and loudspeakers, originally being Pitch, Rhythm and Tune. But it kinda rubbed off to everything in Hi-Fi, even cable elevators.

 

Quoted text:

 

The 'T' in PRaT was once defined to me as "Tune" by one dealer who would now be called a 'flat earther' who seemed to sell mainly Naim and Exposure amplifiers and Linn and Rega turntables. That dealer droned on about "tune following", the ability to separate out one instrument from an ensemble and follow its tune alone. He attributed this to British gear in his shop being better than expensive American imports at accurately resolving the components of tune, which seems to be more a matter of flag waving than listening. Naim dealers made much in their early days of this 'tune following' lark, that capacity of a system to allow the listener to pick out the tune being played by any one instrument in an ensemble and follow its tune alone.

 

However, nearly everyone else now uses the 'T' in PRaT to stand for 'Timing'. Timing is not the same thing as Rhythm or Pace, but it is related. Timing is the accuracy of reproduction of a wavefront comprising many frequencies. Hence a strike of stick on ride cymbal simultaneous with the other stick on the floor-tom should arrive at the hifi listener's ears in the same relationship as they would had the listener been sitting in front of the drum kit rather than their loudspeakers. The most sinful adulterers of timing tend to be multi-way loudspeakers. One glance at the phase graph of a single drive unit would suggest this is already a problem for 1 driver, but combine 2 drive units with a crossover whose filter is derived by phase shift and we realise how tough a task it really is to make music in the home.

 

Mark Wheeler - TNT UK

http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

B&W CM1 + FS-700/CM + Roksan Kandy K2 BT + Native Instruments TA2 + Commodore 64 LPSU + Audioquest Type 4

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