All right, once more day, the cut and paste avenger is back!
RS, quoting evey single sentence that everyone says does not make you smarter nor does it give you the right on anything. It is only a sign of how pedant you are and reflects your believe of some superiority that you do not have and can not even dream on.
My original comment on this thread was not offensive at all but, I started to get all sort of disrespectful attacks from minute 1. I only showed my surprise about the change you made (because I am heading in the opposite direction after 15 years of AVR experience) then, I mentioned that I may question the 8050 amongst the other options I am currently considering. This is what we use this forums also, to help make decissions based on other people experiences, what is wrong with that? I already have a modern 1400 pound AVR, I know that this is not the sound that I am looking for! Also, it is nearly impossible to test things for some people (I will dedicate a full section a little bit further down).
From the 1 minute after I entered my comment someone entered a comment saying that "my opinion was worthless" when I had not even said anything in particular about either 8050 neither 818. Then you started talking to me in 3rd person (pedant again) quoting me as "our friend". Next to that, replying in very defensive and offensive maner to my original post. Who do you think you are? That is pure harassment, nothing more than that. You are not prepared to hear any oppinion different than yours and anything other than your whole truth becomes "redundant premises". I am tired of guys in forums who start attacking at the first sign of discrepancy and start being disrispectful. Then, of course you started with insults and so on..... the rest of your arguments are gone!
If you do not want me to continue giving you hard time and you can bet that I am not going to stop, start talking like a normal person and we will have dialog.
Regarding the "reduntant premise" that AVRs are not good for music (and you say this with your extensive experience of 5 days with your 1st AVR). Many many many of the fomum members have complained about AVR musicallity over the past decade and those who can, have a separate hi-fi systems in addition to the AVR. I have to agree with you though that "times and needs have changed". We listen to music in a different ways and have different needs. I had to stick with AVRs for 15 years because it is the reallity for me and I have no other choice. This does not mean that the guy in the article is not right about sound. Again, it is very pedant from you and very disrispectful to just get this out of the way with a coment like "old redundant premise". He is completely right but he also starts the article saying "AVRs do not sound bad". What has fundamentally changed is our demanding level in terms of sound, and the references to compare againts with. The new generations (where I am included) are far more interested in features and not so much in sound, there is a compromise. We will continue with the systems as long as the sound is "ok".
To me it has been very frustrating to spend lots of money on AVRs and only get what I consider a "5 start genuine piece of electronic junk" in terms of stereo sound. My experience with all the AVRs that I have owned has been terrible (Onkyo 505, Denon 1602, Onkyo 702, Arcam 280, Yamaha A2010). None of them offered a satisfactory musical performance and I am not talking about comparing to very expensive or high-end systems, that is the sad part. As I mentioned before even the small toy that I use for my computer, the "Sonic T-amp" (http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html) performs more consistent. Everytime I go to a friend´s house who has a normal (even mini hi-fi) system, I come back home saying "why does mine sound so strange"? Everytime I go to visit my parents house and listen to my old "Vieta" , I think, man there is something wrong in today´s hi-fi industry. If you think that this is only me thinking this way or with this bad experiences in AVR you are totally wrong!
Why do I keep it? Simple, it is the best I can have for my budget to meet all my requirements and still have a normal livingroom that my wife will accept; iPod, cinema, FM, subwoofer. I do not have turntable since 15 years and I do not use CDs since 15 years either (another compromise I had to make in terms of SQ ). Basically I am screwed to the junk that AVR industry has to offer me. I know that there could be other potential solutions but very complex. Even my thought about adding the 8050 to the equation would be a nightmare to integrate with the other gear; internet, iPod, remote controls, the harmony, FM, cinema integration, etc.
Testing section........ if you are still alive....
I have seen too many times comments like "you have to test before buying" bla,bla,bla or "before giving an opinion" bla,bla,bla. In a perfect world maybe I could go down the street and test in the shop around the corner and then come back to the forum and give opinions but this is not the case. Let me tell you something about testing:
1 - Many places like where I live there are no hi-fi shops. The closest is 200 Km in Bilbao.
2 - They do not like people going there testing. They only like people going there spending their money.
3 - Even if you can test some.... What exactly are you goint to test and how? It took me 1 month before I configured my current AVR with the rest of my gear to get the best possible sound. Of course I would need to take my speakers, subwoofer, iPod, PS3, ect. Perhaps spend there maybe 1 week with each AVR that I test after I have configured them properly? Then test with all kind of music and of course movies..... This is NOT realistic!!!
You have given before a good example of a CD player that was tested by one magazine and got 1 start and then it got 4 starts with other magazine..... Unfortunately this is the issue with separates.... you can not test them alone... it requires speakers, source, cables, accoustics, etc. Every single test is going to be different.
Ex. your AVR 818 tested by WHF makes a very vage comment about music performace saying that "The Onkyo keeps decent time for a receiver and doesn’t embarrass itself". Definetly all in same line as when they say "it is good for music but, a dedicated amp would do better" (ex. latest sony review).
More and more people have to rely on magazines and forums to help on the decision making proces because today´s equipment is very complex has lots of functionality and it is nearly impossible to make realistic tests and specally to compare. For the moment I have to rely almost 95 % on testing done by magazine reviews because they have the equipment, the experience, the possibility to compare and the possibility to test. Does this give me perfect results? Definetly not, but I want to think that less bad results than otherwise.
This is a stupid argument and became a non-sense thread. I am really wondering where are the moderators these days. They should have closed this stupid thread already some time ago. Maybe they are on vacation and I do not blame them because it has been a very long winter and I am looking for that as well.
Well, what else can I say man? We can continue arguing forever or we can settle here and, you continue loving your AVR and I continue hating mine and each of us goes to his corner.
It is a beautiful day (at least in Spain) and it is a pitty to waist it like this really.
Come on, let´s make up, give each other some kisses (without toungue) (LOL) and move on. Seriously, we look like 5 year old kids.... By the way, where is the smiley with the white flag?
If you continue with the cut and paste, I am goint to continue... I tell you that....
Onkyo 818, Dali Ikon 1, Dali suite C0.7, Wharfedale DFS and Wharfedale SW150. Synology 112J NAS with 2 TB WD red HD. PS3 slim. Harmony 600, Optoma HD65 proyector.
Sonic impact T-amp with Whafedale 9SR.
At work just now, but....
I use cut and paste as it allows me to focus on a particular point, or several, and won't stop using it in a hurry - it suits my preferred writing style.
You're hacked off that you haven't got a hifi shop nearby, that you haven't found an AV receiver that does it all for you, and some other stuff on top. None of which is my issue. You do seem to be hacked off that I have moved on from my 8050 to the 818 and this is causing you - it would seem - some angst. Again, none of this my issue although I apparently am responsible for people going out and buying the thing. I hope Onkyo will be in touch to forward my cheque, although a bank transfer will be fine.
I made my buying decisions baseed on knowing Onkyo's sound, the brand's commitment to good quality audio, it's sustained performance for its amps over several years now (Hi Fi World reviews are mainly covered by the same guy and they are consistently good). In short, I Was happy to buy blind and am glad I did so.
You need to deal with it, or move on rendu - nothing for me to see or do here but carry on enjoying my purchase.
Onkyo TX-NR818 / Tannoy DC4 speakers / Marantz UD-7007
AVI Lab Series CD player / various cables
Good to see not much has changed in this forum.....time of a cable debate anyone?
AV: Panny TX-P50X60B | Denon AVR2310 | KEF Q100/Q200/3001SE Eggs | AE Radiance Sub | Panasonic BDT320 | Humax HDR-FoxT2 | Xbox/Kinect | Various Chord cables | Tacima CS929
Hifi: Marantz CD63MKII KI | Marantz PM6004 | Tacima CS929 | Chord Odyssey 2
For what its worth, I used to own an Onkyo TX-SR606 and it was awful for music, really terrible. However I still wanted the 5.1 setup so after a few years I swapped it for a Marantz NR1602 (AVR). The Marantz was better but not as good as how my friends stereo hifi systems sound.
I found that on an AVR you had to leave the Audyssey settings turned on for music as the sound is otherwise really flat and dull.
So, I have recently purchased a stereo amp (Arcam FMJ A1 so that I now have a hifi and AV setup in the same place. It sounds a lot better and having both side-by-side I can say the stereo amp is loads better for music than the AVR.
I would love to be able to do it all from 1 box but I suspect i would need to spend £000s to do it.
Music: Apple Mac Mini | Leema Acoustics Elements Amp & DAC | KEF LS50
AV: Marantz NR1602 | Kef KHT 2005.3 & Kube 2 | Sony BDP-S350 | LG 47LM670T
RENDO, So you critise cut and paste but in your first post that is what you used.
Just because your AVR sounds not good to you does not mean that all are poor with stereo. Thats like me saying I heard Naim and Cyrus amps but did not like them so then are all amps are rubbish. Really having a go at someone about their opinion on an item which you have not even heard is pretty pointless. I think part of your trouble is timing AVR probably were poor for stereo years ago but now maybe things have changed? Maybe you have set yours up correctly?
Nah, cable debates are oh so last year. Now passive v active....
Amp: Leema Pulse; Source: Naim CD5i-2, Denon 260MKII, Pro-ject XP I; Speakers: PMC TB2i
Formerly known as plastic penguin
I think Rendu makes a few good points very well regarding equipment, dealers, reviews etc.
(Obviously i'm not referring to personal comments between Rendu and RS because that's 'their thing' and is not my business.)
I hope - just for the sake of getting to reread his last post later when I am out having a coffee - that the thread doesn't get stopped.
Some of what Rendu wrote resonates very strongly with me.
Again, not bothered about the squabble / 'last word Larry' stuff.
Marantz M-CR603 • Rega R3 loudspeakers • AirPlay • Apple iPad Mini • Apple iPhone 5 • Apple iMac • Apple AirPort Extreme 802.11N • Humax HDR-Fox T2 • Panasonic TX-L32D25B • Sony BDP-S390
Chebby, I think RS is getting a taste of his own medicine, even though I'll side with him here Reminds me of my little arguments with him (and fr0g et al) when I had to stand my ground on my own rips and ears.
But I'm with him here, if he's happy with the Onkyo then so be it. Rendu may have valid points, but surely after his 3rd AV amp he should have known better? He can't blame RS for that! I would agree with him that sometimes dealers leave a bit to be desired though where service is concerned. Also Rendu ignores the possibility that AV amps may have made considerable strides in stereo playback in the last few years, at least at the price RS paid.
Also, RS has bought a pretty recent and high-end machine and I would expect it to play stereo with a modicum of fluency. This argument is not dissimilar to those I had where I asked others not to deride my personal decisions on rips, no matter what 'scientific proof' I may have ignored. RS is simply asking not to be derided on the decision to purchase the Onkyo.
And I can respect that entirely.
Arcam Solo Mini/Monitor Audio RX1/Cambridge Audio 751BD/Samsung 37” LCD
Rendu has a 2012 model Yamaha worth around $1599 when new, so google tells me anyway, so he probably is well aware of the capabilities of modern AV receivers worth decent money.
RS, I am also at work and we better stop being distracted because if we loose our jobs then, we will not be able to continue purchasing things that we can hate or love and argue about them in the forum.
I never said none of that was your problem, only sharing my experience and view point.
I had an Onkyo 702 some 5 years ago also THX certified and I have to admit that, it gave me some good times but it was not good in stereo. It seems they have taken some steps to move away from harasseness on the high frequencies. Maybe in a future seeing that they have "refined" the sound a bit I may give it another try.
Enjoy your purchase.
To the rest... I have no more energy today so sorry if I do not reply every single one of you.
Peace and Love to everybody (well, peace for the boys and love for the girls of course...).. By the way, why are there no girls in the hi-fi world, or only very few.... ?? This is a topic for another battle and if this is againt women then, I bet we will all loose for sure...
FWIW the TX-NR818 I am running at the moment for TV/home cinema duties plays a wide range of stereo music formats extremely well, and much better than the already impressive TX-SR875 it replaced.
True, it doesn't perform as well in stereo as the Naim SuperNait/HiCap DR I also run, and through which the front L/R preouts of the Onkyo are connected most of the time, but then the Onkyo does a lot the Naim doesn't in terms of surround, video switching and so forth, and is only a fraction of the price of the Naim set-up.
That the 818 is so good in stereo (and indeed for surround music) is hardly surprising, given that when I visited Onkyo last year the emphasis of the discussions was firmly on music rather than movie sound
Audio Editor, Gramophone
altruistic.lemon - Fine, but as I said, surely he should have then learned from his own lessons??? Like I've been burned with iPods, sometimes one just needs to learn at some point. He cannot then just say 'oh RS your purchase is rubbish because of my experience'. RS has had a different experience which is entirely valid. Could it be so far-fetched that the this specific Onkyo could be better than Rendu's Yamaha?
And inform me if I'm wrong, but he hasn't heard the Onkyo has he? You clearly have your biases against AV amps and you're entitled to your own truth. But it may not hold for everybody else. RS is not shoving his opinions down people's throats. He's not trying to persuade the masses to buy expensive AV amps, he's just expressing satisfaction with his purchase.
Agree, some good points made by Rendu and personally, I much prefer no or little censorship as these things tend to 'sort' themselves out, at least the personal aspect of it.
Many of the better AV receivers measure as good as dedicated stereo amplifiers. That means low distortion, good S/N figures etc., In case of some of the Onkyos in question, they are up there with some very decent amplifiers, not just price comparable ones.
Objectively, there are no reasons why an AV receiver can't do 'timing', 'musical' etc. . It is simply a question of finding one that appeals (and matches the speakers used) but technically many are adept and capable, the good ones that is.
Pretty ... and pretty proud of it
Have you tried what the Audyssey can do to the music (for better or for worse)?
I'm trying to read Rendu's post in isolation as if the rest of this thread (especially the argumentative bits) hadn't been written.
Some good/interesting points do occasionally get made in threads like these. (In between the brickbats.)
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