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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

The biggest problem I would find is practicality.  When something new gets plugged in, it pretty much always sound good.  Subtle negatives don't show their head for a little while, it take a prolonged listening to notice.  People on here regularly point out how crap our auditory memory is, I assume this is why.  I don't know how prolonged blind AB/Xing can occur?

Thats what I used to find anyway, before my vinyl fettling illness was cured.  Now I just tend to turn it up a little bit if something displeases me Wink

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

altruistic.lemon wrote:

HDD audio?

Well that's me done then.(Getting coat.)

 

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

chebby wrote:

I have no desire to prove or disprove this to others (or even discuss it). So if someone tells me I am wrong on all counts then good luck to you whoever you are. (£5 says it'll be Cnoevil anyway.)

Hmmm!

I don't tell people they are wrong (though I'll pass on what I've heard), but to go and listen and then make up their own mind.....which you have done.

Can I have the £5?   Blum 3

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

I did qualify my statement by using the word "predominantly".

I do remember that when I first posted here, looking for advice on a couple of things, I received very little. I note that many first timers posts go unanswered.

It is time I stopped coming here though - it's become a habit. Weird.

Full praise to Dalethorn and Quadpatch in the headphone section - two really helpful and knowledgeable guys.

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

pauln wrote:

I did qualify my statement by using the word "predominantly".

I do remember that when I first posted here, looking for advice on a couple of things, I received very little. I note that many first timers posts go unanswered.

It is time I stopped coming here though - it's become a habit. Weird.

Full praise to Dalethorn and Quadpatch in the headphone section - two really helpful and knowledgeable guys.

 

Paul, it's a forum, not a surgery.  People come and go and sometimes questions will go unanswered.  Posts sometimes get few replies, some get hundreds.  It's forum life the internet over.  I get the impression your question went down the quieter funnel.  People around here are fine, pretty respectful of others and tolerant of others views in the main, with a very few exceptions.  But there's really nothing here that isn't replicated elsewhere on fora of other interests or subject matters.  

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

chebby wrote:

Reading through your post again, it is clear that you have proved to yourself (or had proved by others to your satisfaction) all the discussion points like differences (or lack of) between codecs, cables, levels of compression. wines, amplifiers etc.

Therefore any debate or disagreement (or differences in our experience) is going to go no-where because you've already been convinced. Your conviction in such matters are bound to lead to challenge and this will lead to arguments.

I don't drink wine and I don't believe in the efficacy of very expensive 'boutique' cables and my own (limited and entirely sighted) tests of compression rates have convinced me that 320K AAC VBR is the point where I struggle to tell the difference from Apple Lossless so that's what I use.

I can also tell the difference between 256K iTunes downloads and my own 256K AAC rips from CDs of the same tracks. (Rips are so obviously superior to my ears.)

I have no desire to prove or disprove this to others (or even discuss it). So if someone tells me I am wrong on all counts then good luck to you whoever you are. (£5 says it'll be Cnoevil anyway.)

 

 

You're missing the point. I need no backup or challenge for what I have "proven" to myself, it was merely there to state my overriding feeling on the subject. The second (and more important in this context) part was to garner discussion. How much can we guarantee that such a test is valid. I feel it can never be 100% (albeit not far off given enough people), and that the change in environment can be a factor.

I am merely interested in non-agressive opinions. Fighting (as you know) is pointless. Hearing other people's reasoning is not.

 

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

altruistic.lemon wrote:

HDD audio?

 

I have no intention of naming the forum. At last count I was a member on at least 6, only 2 as fr0g. There are overzealous admins on most.

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

If the difference is so small that it's only a possibility that it might be identified in an ABX test is the difference really worth worrying about?

 

Are you speakers/room measuring near-flat across the frequency range? If the answer is no or you don't know then you are wasting your time worrying about which amp or CD player will sound better because you'll never hear what its capable of anyway.

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

MakkaPakka wrote:

If the difference is so small that it's only a possibility that it might be identified in an ABX test is the difference really worth worrying about?

 

Are you speakers/room measuring near-flat across the frequency range? If the answer is no or you don't know then you are wasting your time worrying about which amp or CD player will sound better because you'll never hear what its capable of anyway.

 

Surely that is what the pursuit of Hi-fi nirvana is all about though? 

I agree, the speakers are the most important link by a considerable margin, but given you have speakers, and not actives, then is it not worth trying to get the best out of them? I'm not saying it is, it's just a thought.

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

pauln wrote:

I did qualify my statement by using the word "predominantly".

I have no problem with that statement, it's the bit that I highlighted that came across as pretty disengenuous.

pauln wrote:

I do remember that when I first posted here, looking for advice on a couple of things, I received very little. I note that many first timers posts go unanswered.

It is time I stopped coming here though - it's become a habit. Weird.

Full praise to Dalethorn and Quadpatch in the headphone section - two really helpful and knowledgeable guys.

One of your first posts was back in 08, and was fairly straight forward, and got 32 replies. A couple of your more recent queries were quite specialist, and that probably accounted for the lack of replies.

It is my impression that a great many of the first time posts get a friendly welcome, but the odd one slips through the net. The new members section has 8 pages of new member posts, and I don't see you featuring very heavily.......maybe it's always down to someone else.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

...and regarding testing... Smile

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

fr0g wrote:

...and regarding testing... Smile

:oops:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

Quote:
However, I also think that single tests, or tests where there are not many participants can be flawed, flawed for the very same reasons as I think that non-blind AB testing is flawed, i.e. our brain plays tricks on us, and our ears hear things differently in different circumstances. Tests done with wine have shown that 2 identical wines, labelled differently, one cheap, one expensive, will receive different opinions by the same person. People will claim that the expensive one “tastes better”. But they are the same...However, the “expensive labelled version” does indeed taste better, as brain scans have shown more activity in the brain's pleasure centres whilst drinking it. So not only is the brain being fooled, it is reacting physically differently to 2 identical yet differently labelled bottles.
But is this by 'ordinary' newbies to wine tasting, or by 'professionals' who are up their own backside and like the sound of their own voice?

Quote:
Are they worth it to you?
Only if they are properly conducted, but there's so many aspects that can be 'fudged' that you don't know if you're trying everything fairly.

Quote:
Do you really trust your ears in a sighted test?
I think some people can. Yes, I agree that there is a lot of bias expectation, but I do believe that people can rise above it and 'think for themselves'. In an ABX test, it doesn't really matter as it is generally a bit of fun, but I think it is different when people are actually spending their own money - if someone is ABX testing two interconnects for £30 and £3000, those not buying may well say the more expensive one "is better", but those doing it with a view to possibly spending £3000 are going to treat things a little more seriously. You could say that those who can afford a £3k interconnect may well choose the better one because they can, but on the flip side, the majority of people who are into this hobby generally can't afford £3k cables (no disrespect intended to anyone - I include myself in that generalisation!) are going to be a little more careful with their extremely hard earned cash.

Quote:
Do you think that the act of testing and knowing you are testing can alter the results?
Yes.

 

Something you said on 'that other forum':

Quote:
I'm not claiming long-term testing is better. And while I stand by what I said (above), I think it's more than "stress", rather different conditions.You listen at home in comfort, relaxing, with your mind on nothing but the music. You then start playing (30?) second snaps of the music back and forth. It isn't the same. You "will" hear it differently.

Most of my impressions of equipment nowadays tend to be based on long term listening. As long as you know your favourite albums well, I don't see any problems. Sometimes you hear something in a track like the bassline or the drums that just sound amazing on a particular system, but less impressive on others. My preference of Chord's Epic over Odyssey with the KEF Blades and an accompanying Cyrus system was based on long term listening. With the Epic, the system always sounded great. We changed to four core Odyssey, and over the following weeks, the system just seemed to lose something - it just didn't sound as good. Putting the Epic back on, and the following few weeks the system seemed to sound better again.

There's also the aspect of ABX testing that many tend to push - volume matching. While I fully understand and appreciate the need for this (as well as the effects of not level matching), I'm not so sure that it plays such a part as people think. What I mean is, we all have a favourite listening level. It doesn't matter what album you put on, or how different the level is between them, most people will adjust the volume to that level. I'd guess that most of us would probably get two different systems playing the same thing to within 1dB when setting our own listening levels. As an example, even when my neighbour goes out, I don't play my system any louder - I still listen at the same volume I normally do, because I find it comfortable for me and the room. I'm not expecting this last point to be popular, maybe not even understood, but I've said anyway. So there Smile

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

OK, frog, just read the previous post and am (at least temporarily) on your side. 

What nonsense, David @etc! You know that volume matching is the minimum requirement of any form of testing, blind or not. Don't obfuscate, if that's the word I want.

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RE: Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

Like I said, some will understand what I said, some won't Smile

(and I DID say that I fully understand the need for volume matching!)

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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