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AlmaataKZ's picture
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RE: Stop it!

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Thing is, guys, the evangelists are on a loser here. Unfortunately we've got ears, not measuring devices linked to our brains. All the scientific theory in the world isn't going to make perfect speakers, so this education approach is a complete waste of time. Given you're all members of another tiny forum, discuss this highly important stuff there and let the rest of us go out, use our ears and buy something we like.

 

I cannot agree. see post re tastes and food analogy above.

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RE: Stop it!

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Provided personal preference is based also on technically correct performance information. 

Why? Just buy what you want and enjoy.

see food analogy - you don't want to eat too much fatty food, however enjoyable it is. Make it healthy AND not less likeable. So, make it active (as in high performance, = healthy) and sounding to your liking. this is what I mean when I advocate actives. Quality. Which is inherent with the active design, other things being equal.

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RE: Stop it!

AlmaataKZ wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Thing is, guys, the evangelists are on a loser here. Unfortunately we've got ears, not measuring devices linked to our brains. All the scientific theory in the world isn't going to make perfect speakers, so this education approach is a complete waste of time. Given you're all members of another tiny forum, discuss this highly important stuff there and let the rest of us go out, use our ears and buy something we like.

 

I cannot agree. see post re tastes and food analogy above.

Not a good analogy, I'm afraid. Speakers aren't harmful to your health, so whether you like Focal, Maggies or Monitor Audio, it don't matter a sh***

Why do you want to educate people, mate, when there's nothing to educate? People aren't oscilloscopes, FFRs mean nothing if they like what they hear. You've got to remember too most HiFi speaker manufacturers, including AVI if I remember correctly, end up tuning by ear - how unscientific is that?

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RE: Stop it!

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Provided personal preference is based also on technically correct performance information. 

Why? Just buy what you want and enjoy.

see food analogy - you don't want to eat too much fatty food, however enjoyable it is. Make it healthy AND not less likeable. So, make it active (as in high performance, = healthy) and sounding to your liking. this is what I men when I advocate actives. Quality. Which is inherent with the active design, other things being equal.

Sorry, this holds no merit on any count. Firstly, your nutritional assumptions are almost certainly wrong. Secondly, What we eat is a matter of genuine importance and can hardly be compared to all this nonsense at all. It will not damage my health one bit to listen to whatever speakers I want, active or otherwise.

Actually, I find this sanctimonious drivel quite offensive.

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RE: Stop it!

in fairness, turn the volume up too much and speakers may well be damaging to ones health Wink

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RE: Stop it!

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Provided personal preference is based also on technically correct performance information. 

Why? Just buy what you want and enjoy.

see food analogy - you don't want to eat too much fatty food, however enjoyable it is. Make it healthy AND not less likeable. So, make it active (as in high performance, = healthy) and sounding to your liking. this is what I men when I advocate actives. Quality. Which is inherent with the active design, other things being equal.

Sorry, this holds no merit on any count. Firstly, your nutritional assumptions are almost certainly wrong. Secondly, What we eat is a matter of genuine importance and can hardly be compared to all this nonsense at all. It will not damage my health one bit to listen to whatever speakers I want, active or otherwise.

Actually, I find this sanctimonious drivel quite offensive.

+1, and decidedly boring. Smile

 

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RE: Stop it!

AlmaataKZ wrote:

...this is what I mean when I advocate actives. Quality. Which is inherent with the active design, other things being equal.

24/96 is inherently, technically, measurably better than 16/44, other things being equal.

Which sounds better?

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RE: Stop it!

This thread is amusing me on a boring day at work.

Thanks for the technical links with regard to the active designs. Ive had a read and its very intersting. As a technical person (although not in the electronics field) I now understand the benefits that such designs present.

A significant downside to this is the reason we all choose to own hifi 'separates'. They give flexibility in approach. I can upgrade my amplifier without loosing speakers with a sonic signature I already enjoy and vice versa.

Being in the market for new speakers, actives are something I will now look into and maybe trial but I think the market as is demonstates that separating these components is beneficial with regard to flexibility and something the domestic consumer values more.

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RE: Stop it!

altruistic.lemon wrote:
You've got to remember too most HiFi speaker manufacturers, including AVI if I remember correctly, end up tuning by ear - how unscientific is that?

Not too sure about your inclusion there: didn't the Salesman-in-Chief raise some eyebrows a while back when he said that the speaker designer was pleasantly surprised when he heard a pair of their speakers after they went into production, as he hadn't actually listened to them during the design process?

I lose track of which model it was, so rapid is that company's constant upgraditis and badgering owners to dump whatever they just bought and get the new model. Suffice it to say it was the one apparently at least an order of magnitude better than the one before it, and several orders better than anything else on the market. Or something.

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RE: Stop it!

Too many active speaker systems still rely on external 'boxes' to make a complete system. (Pre-amps or DAC/pre-amps + sources both traditional and otherwise, wireless and wired.)

This can make a nonsense of the biggest perceived benefit of active speakers (compactness, neatness, reduction of cables and clutter). Even AVI have gone back to making a 'bare bones' active speaker without any such built-in functionality (ADM5s) which was a bit bizarre given how cool a smaller, cheaper version of the ADM9s might have been.

A pre-amp usually costs more than an integrated amp (from the same company) because it will come from higher up the manufacturer's range.  Good DAC pre-amps (with some analogue provision, a volume control and a remote) are also, typically, quite expensive.

The way forward has already proved to be active systems that are competely integrated, whether it's a B&W A7 or Sonos Play / Cambridge Audio Minx  type of device or B&O and Meridian and Linn active systems at the other end of the budget scale.

There are others filling in the gaps between (Quad 9AS, Dynaudio Xeo, KEF 300a as a few 'for instances').

Pro shops don't really get much foot traffic from the domestic market (with it's insistence on kit that doesn't look like a refugee from a teenager's bedroom 'studio').

It is not the active nature of some of this 'new wave' equipment (for want of a better term) that sells it.  Indeed a lot of these integrated systems are passive 'powered' devices. It is their completely integrated nature, compactness, good design and domestic compatibility that sells them.  A tiny percentage of customers will care whether axctive technology was responsible for them sounding good.

The market (and not education) will determine what succeeds.  B&W are succeeding with their A7, A5, Zeps and Z series systems in spite of  the technology within and not because of it.   No-one cares. 

Ruark's success (with their mini systems and radios) is because they sound good, look good and they were well marketed in lifestyle mags and national newspapers and because they sell in the sort of places (and websites) that people actually go shopping in  (and not predominately male oriented,  pokey little hi-fi garrets in the lowest rent area of town, but places like John Lewis branches for example).  Whether they are active or passive is, again, meaningless.

Even I would want to run away from some goon trying to evangalise active vs passive to me (and I understand the difference). No-one needs that c##p on a Saturday morning. Show me what's within my budget, tell me if it'll work with my other stuff (TV, iPhone, iPad, laptop or whatever) and let me listen. If my wife hasn't thown up on the shop floor at the sight of it, threatened divorce at the price of it (and it sounds good) then i'll have some of it please.  That's how it works.

 

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RE: Stop it!

AlmaataKZ wrote:
This is of cause true. 

 

Of course it is.

(sorry, no offence intended, but that must be the third time.)

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RE: Stop it!

spiny norman wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:
You've got to remember too most HiFi speaker manufacturers, including AVI if I remember correctly, end up tuning by ear - how unscientific is that?

Not too sure about your inclusion there: didn't the Salesman-in-Chief raise some eyebrows a while back when he said that the speaker designer was pleasantly surprised when he heard a pair of their speakers after they went into production, as he hadn't actually listened to them during the design process?

I lose track of which model it was, so rapid is that company's constant upgraditis and badgering owners to dump whatever they just bought and get the new model. Suffice it to say it was the one apparently at least an order of magnitude better than the one before it, and several orders better than anything else on the market. Or something.

 

But I think he's also on record s saying that they don't leave the factory without being listened to by some specially chosen, golden-eared acquaintance(es?) or other.

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RE: Stop it!

chebby wrote:

Too many active speaker systems still rely on external 'boxes' to make a complete system. (Pre-amps or DAC/pre-amps + sources both traditional and otherwise, wireless and wired.)

This can make a nonsense of the biggest perceived benefit of active speakers (compactness, neatness, reduction of cables and clutter). Even AVI have gone back to making a 'bare bones' active speaker without any such built-in functionality (ADM5s) which was a bit bizarre given how cool a smaller, cheaper version of the ADM9s might have been.

A pre-amp usually costs more than an integrated amp (from the same company) because it will come from higher up the manufacturer's range.  Good DAC pre-amps (with some analogue provision, a volume control and a remote) are also, typically, quite expensive.

The way forward has already proved to be active systems that are competely integrated, whether it's a B&W A7 or Sonos Play / Cambridge Audio Minx  type of device or B&O and Meridian and Linn active systems at the other end of the budget scale.

There are others filling in the gaps between (Quad 9AS, Dynaudio Xeo, KEF 300a as a few 'for instances').

Pro shops don't really get much foot traffic from the domestic market (with it's insistence on kit that doesn't look like a refugee from a teenager's bedroom 'studio').

It is not the active nature of some of this 'new wave' equipment (for want of a better term) that sells it.  Indeed a lot of these integrated systems are passive 'powered' devices. It is their completely integrated nature, compactness, good design and domestic compatibility that sells them.  A tiny percentage of customers will care whether axctive technology was responsible for them sounding good.

The market (and not education) will determine what succeeds.  B&W are succeeding with their A7, A5, Zeps and Z series systems in spite of  the technology within and not because of it.   No-one cares. 

Ruark's success (with their mini systems and radios) is because they sound good, look good and they were well marketed in lifestyle mags and national newspapers and because they sell in the sort of places (and websites) that people actually go shopping in  (and not predominately male oriented,  pokey little hi-fi garrets in the lowest rent area of town, but places like John Lewis branches for example).  Whether they are active or passive is, again, meaningless.

Even I would want to run away from some goon trying to evangalise active vs passive to me (and I understand the difference). No-one needs that c##p on a Saturday morning. Show me what's within my budget, tell me if it'll work with my other stuff (TV, iPhone, iPad, laptop or whatever) and let me listen. If my wife hasn't thown up on the shop floor at the sight of it, threatened divorce at the price of it (and it sounds good) then i'll have some of it please.  That's how it works.

 

Fully agree.

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RE: Stop it!

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Alec wrote:

AlmaataKZ wrote:

Provided personal preference is based also on technically correct performance information. 

Why? Just buy what you want and enjoy.

see food analogy - you don't want to eat too much fatty food, however enjoyable it is. Make it healthy AND not less likeable. So, make it active (as in high performance, = healthy) and sounding to your liking. this is what I men when I advocate actives. Quality. Which is inherent with the active design, other things being equal.

Sorry, this holds no merit on any count. Firstly, your nutritional assumptions are almost certainly wrong. Secondly, What we eat is a matter of genuine importance and can hardly be compared to all this nonsense at all. It will not damage my health one bit to listen to whatever speakers I want, active or otherwise.

Actually, I find this sanctimonious drivel quite offensive.

No offence intended. Food analogy is not exact of cause, only to illustrate that you chose things not only becuse you like them but also because you know they are 'better', and that tastes evolve with time. 

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RE: Stop it!

AlmaataKZ wrote:

davedotco wrote:

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Recently I have noticed in a few threads regarding sound quality a few members keep dropping the Active Speaker bomb into the discussion as if they'll give a noteable imrpovement in sound quality over passive speakers, stop it.

There is no decernable difference between the two types of speaker - outside of the convininece and flexability passive speakers offer - given a straight blind test I doubt anyone could tell passive from active anyway. So please - there is enough confusion  in this hobby already.

Thank you.

Hi Thompson, nice to speak to you, haven't done so in quite a while.

Pleased to see that you are continuing your tradition of making posts about things you have absolutely no knowledge or experience of.

 

As far back as the mid '70's I was demonstrating the advantages of active speakers to people who really knew what they were doing and what they were talking about.

Personally I had my first pair (of actives) about '77 and although the hi-fi world has spent most of the last 30 years making 'the active option' as difficult as possible they are, just slowly, beginning to catch up. Another 30 years and your good self may even be on board.

+1

Ditto! When I Tri-Amped my TLs made many years ago the improvements were dramatic.

 

Then I changed from the passive crossovers (Energy storage devices if you look at the physics) to correctly designed electronic crossover the ensuing improvements were huge.  Wider dynamic range and dynamic contrast, superior articulation and focus. Above all the clarity of the bass was immeasurably superior. I have applied this to other cabinet configurations with similar success. Synergy and symbiosis spring to mind!  And obviously personal preferences are a puerile arguement, the transducer either sounds like the real thing or it does not...

 

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