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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

altruistic.lemon wrote:

The link here explains things :  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm 

Around 6db seems to be the roughly correct figure for a perceived doubling.

Chebby, I think earlier ddc said he was a (I presume) hi fi dealer.

That is a very interesting article and pretty much confirms everything that I said in terms of the normal relationship between output power, SPL and perceived loudness.

It includes a further set of analysis that suggests that the normally accepted relationship may not be quite correct, but that is using different physco- acoustic propositions that manipulate the results in a different manner to the currently accepted theorys.

I am trying to keep this as simple as I can, quoting the most generally accepted figures, this is a subjective matter as I keep saying, so yes there are differences in opinion but they pale into insignificance compared to some of the nonsense touted as fact on this and other forums.

 

FWIIW I have worked in hi-fi on and off since my university days when I worked part time in TCR to pay the bills. From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi. I have also worked extensively in pro-audio including spells as a recording and live sound engineer.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

BigH wrote:

davedotco wrote:

 

Sorry bigH but your posts suggest otherwise. I'm not having a go but you are way off the mark in nearly everything you say.

Firstly, how do you know that you have turned up your amplifier by 10db, did you measure the output voltage? The SPL?

Secondly, subjective judgements of loudness are just that, subjective. The equivalence of measured level and perceived loudness is an empirical value, based on substantial testing and statistical analysis.

There are so many variables involved that it makes a nonsense of your observations. All it means is that your amplifier appears to get louder rather quickly, that is about all.

My amp volume goes up in 0.5db steps.

So like take it that is a no. Volume controls, any volume controls, are not a reliable measure of output power.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

chebby wrote:

Given all you say, how can you bear to be here Dave?

What can I say, I am on a mission of enlightenment........ >)

Good luck with that one...

I have to say though it's good to have someone who's technically knowledgeable on the forum.

:cheers:

Hi-Fi        AVI DM5 > AVI Neutron sub

Head-Fi  Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

BigH wrote:

davedotco wrote:

 

Sorry bigH but your posts suggest otherwise. I'm not having a go but you are way off the mark in nearly everything you say.

Firstly, how do you know that you have turned up your amplifier by 10db, did you measure the output voltage? The SPL?

Secondly, subjective judgements of loudness are just that, subjective. The equivalence of measured level and perceived loudness is an empirical value, based on substantial testing and statistical analysis.

There are so many variables involved that it makes a nonsense of your observations. All it means is that your amplifier appears to get louder rather quickly, that is about all.

My amp volume goes up in 0.5db steps.

So like take it that is a no. Volume controls, any volume controls, are not a reliable measure of output power.

"All it means is that your amplifier appears to get louder rather quickly, that is about all." Haha ROFL

I will ask the manufacturer and get back to you.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:

The link here explains things :  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm 

Around 6db seems to be the roughly correct figure for a perceived doubling.

Chebby, I think earlier ddc said he was a (I presume) hi fi dealer.

That is a very interesting article and pretty much confirms everything that I said in terms of the normal relationship between output power, SPL and perceived loudness.

It includes a further set of analysis that suggests that the normally accepted relationship may not be quite correct, but that is using different physco- acoustic propositions that manipulate the results in a different manner to the currently accepted theorys.

I am trying to keep this as simple as I can, quoting the most generally accepted figures, this is a subjective matter as I keep saying, so yes there are differences in opinion but they pale into insignificance compared to some of the nonsense touted as fact on this and other forums.

 

FWIIW I have worked in hi-fi on and off since my university days when I worked part time in TCR to pay the bills. From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi. I have also worked extensively in pro-audio including spells as a recording and live sound engineer.

Did you read that article to the end? The figure given isn't your 10db, so it refutes, not confirms, what you said. Thanks forkeeping it simple so we can understand, by the way.  Could you also use words of one syllable and really short sentences, that would be a great help, too.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

 From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi

 

Whats your idea of proper hifi?

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

steve_1979 wrote:

davedotco wrote:

chebby wrote:

Given all you say, how can you bear to be here Dave?

What can I say, I am on a mission of enlightenment........ >)

Good luck with that one...

I have to say though it's good to have somebody who's technically knowledgeable and experienced on the forum.

:cheers:

I am no electronic engineer (though I have an engineering degree) but I was trained by JBL to be their 'Professional Applications Engineer' for the European region by people as eminent in there field as John Storyk and John Curl along with the JBL house engineers. 

When JBL were brought fully into the Harmon empire I moved on to working as a sound engineer, both in the studio and live. I have a very good working knowledge of how audio equipment works in a practical sense, though I have only a rudimentary idea of electronic circuits.

 

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

altruistic.lemon wrote:

davedotco wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:

The link here explains things :  http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm 

Around 6db seems to be the roughly correct figure for a perceived doubling.

Chebby, I think earlier ddc said he was a (I presume) hi fi dealer.

That is a very interesting article and pretty much confirms everything that I said in terms of the normal relationship between output power, SPL and perceived loudness.

It includes a further set of analysis that suggests that the normally accepted relationship may not be quite correct, but that is using different physco- acoustic propositions that manipulate the results in a different manner to the currently accepted theorys.

I am trying to keep this as simple as I can, quoting the most generally accepted figures, this is a subjective matter as I keep saying, so yes there are differences in opinion but they pale into insignificance compared to some of the nonsense touted as fact on this and other forums.

 

FWIIW I have worked in hi-fi on and off since my university days when I worked part time in TCR to pay the bills. From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi. I have also worked extensively in pro-audio including spells as a recording and live sound engineer.

Did you read that article to the end? The figure given isn't your 10db, so it refutes, not confirms, what you said. Thanks forkeeping it simple so we can understand, by the way.  Could you also use words of one syllable and really short sentences, that would be a great help, too.

Yes I did read the article to the end which I thought my second paragraph would have made clear. Maybe I did not use words of sufficiently few syllables.

Did you read it from the beginning? The bit where it quotes the established and longstanding theory that I used in my original comments?

This is an interesting study and challenges some of the current theories but as far as I know it has not replaced them. My comments and figures quoted represent the currently accepted state of our understanding of these matters.

 

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

BigH wrote:

davedotco wrote:

 From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi

 

Whats your idea of proper hifi?

Anything made by a reputable company whose primary purpose is to reproduce music as accurately as possible within the limitations of the design brief.

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but my 'entry level' components were from the likes of Rega, Arcam and Creek amount others.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

dave - 

 

Some people with a technical understanding of hi-fi componentry subscribe to the view that the difference between two amps or two cd players (assuming they're properly designed which, nowadays, is easily achievable) is outside of our hearing.

 

I'm curious as to where you sit on that issue? 

 

 

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

ddc, I'm not sure at which level to pitch this, as I don't want to offend you, but I do want you to understand.

You seem to think your role here is to teach and educate. Well and good, you have some experience. Unfortunately, you also have a manner which can be off-putting. It comes across that you have a conceit, if you like, about your knowledge and this detracts from your words. Call it ego, call it arrogance, I don't know, but self-styled or trained teachers are well advised to keep away from this if they want to to get their message across. I'd give the example of our maths teacher who got a lot of us riotous and untalented kids through HSC back in the day, but that's enough for now.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

MakkaPakka wrote:

dave - 

 

Some people with a technical understanding of hi-fi componentry subscribe to the view that the difference between two amps or two cd players (assuming they're properly designed which, nowadays, is easily achievable) is outside of our hearing.

 

I'm curious as to where you sit on that issue? 

I hate to be pedantic but you need to be more specific. 

Almost all integrated amplifiers sound different though in many cases the differences are minimal.

On the other hand, if we just consider power amplifiers, competently designed and working within their design parameters they are very difficult to tell apart. Harbeth have a long standing challenge in place and will give a pair of speakers (any model, any spec) to anyone who can reliably pick the amplifiers in a blind test, so far no one has.

CD players are something else entirely, for a whole host of reasons mostly to do with the transport and error correction a lot of CD players do sound different.

Remember, they are attempting to read a rapidly spinning disc in real time, they only get one shot at retrieving the data and the error correction has to fill the gaps. Some CD players do this better than others and sometimes this is audible.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

It was specific enough - you answered the question I was asking which was based on things like the Harbeth challenge you mention.

 

I couldn't claim to have heard a difference between integrated amps or CD players (despite tests on the latter) so was curious as your view on it bearing in mnd you're a skeptic with a background in audio.

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

BigH wrote:

davedotco wrote:

 From the late 80s for a little over a decade owned and ran my own shop selling what I considered to be 'proper' hi-fi

 

Whats your idea of proper hifi?

Anything made by a reputable company whose primary purpose is to reproduce music as accurately as possible within the limitations of the design brief.

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but my 'entry level' components were from the likes of Rega, Arcam and Creek amount others.

Thanks. I don't think I would descibe Arcam as accurate, enjoyable maybe. Did you sell Naim?

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RE: Some new gear, can't say I'm impressed

davedotco wrote:

MakkaPakka wrote:

dave - 

 

Some people with a technical understanding of hi-fi componentry subscribe to the view that the difference between two amps or two cd players (assuming they're properly designed which, nowadays, is easily achievable) is outside of our hearing.

 

I'm curious as to where you sit on that issue? 

I hate to be pedantic but you need to be more specific. 

Almost all integrated amplifiers sound different though in many cases the differences are minimal.

On the other hand, if we just consider power amplifiers, competently designed and working within their design parameters they are very difficult to tell apart. Harbeth have a long standing challenge in place and will give a pair of speakers (any model, any spec) to anyone who can reliably pick the amplifiers in a blind test, so far no one has.

CD players are something else entirely, for a whole host of reasons mostly to do with the transport and error correction a lot of CD players do sound different.

Remember, they are attempting to read a rapidly spinning disc in real time, they only get one shot at retrieving the data and the error correction has to fill the gaps. Some CD players do this better than others and sometimes this is audible.

 

Not sure about long standing, has stopped now and did anyone ever do it, by the time I found out it had finished.

 

In my demo I would say amps were similar but not the same, how can they be with different components and a tricks to cover up cheap components. Also more powerful amps can sound different at a similar volume due to less distortion and more control.

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