So, do all amplifiers sound the same?

Anyone who thinks all amps sound the same is very welcome to come and listen to my HiFi. I still have a Cyrus II+PSX here, and a Marantz PM66KI. Their different tonal characteristics are so obvious you won't need to ABX.

Well, I'm not 'all' blondes, thank you ...

Must mention your system as well as Ben's. Admirable and beyond what most of us can aspire to. Very nice indeed.

As to Arcam versus Cyrus, or other similar combinations, if that is your experience then I of course respect that.

Perhaps it would be worth mentioning though that if one of them had tone or a loudness control, the outcome would imo be more indifferent than many people would expect. I respectfully refer you to my OP for more on that. Of course thats just my take on it.

Nice though, that there is such a broad base of opinions. It makes everything more interesting

regards

I do believe you but also remember that any sighted comparison, whilst not impossible, is also flawed. Once again, if they, or at least one of them had tone controls, the results would perhaps be less clear, sighted or not. I dont have any measurements to hand of your cyrus II but it is perhaps also possible that the design 'suffers' from a different distortion pattern than the Marantz. Whilst it is as far as I know not possible to precisely mimic distortion with means of tone controls (or an equalizer) it would perhaps be likely to make the outcome very close indeed.

regards

PS. It is a real pain to post on this forum today. Everything is so slow!! Perhaps its just me

I do believe you but also remember that any sighted comparison, whilst not impossible, is also flawed. Once again, if they, or at least one of them had tone controls, the results would perhaps be less clear, sighted or not. I dont have any measurements to hand of your cyrus II but it is perhaps also possible that the design 'suffers' from a different distortion pattern than the Marantz. Whilst it is as far as I know not possible to precisely mimic distortion with means of tone controls (or an equalizer) it would perhaps be likely to make the outcome very close indeed.

regards

This is my interpretation, but amplifiers are speaker sensitive, hence why Cyrus generally sound better with smoother monitors, while Nad excel with brighter (livelier) speakers.

Amplifiers - within a £200 price scale - have slight tonal differences. However, when comparing budget with higher end amps then there is a (very) noticeable uplift.

Last week I hooked up my old Arcam Alpha and it sounded almost primitive compared to the Leema.

Another example was when I had a Cyrus 8VS2 (£800) and Roksan Kandy LIII (£650) in my living room at the same time - the kandy won hands down hooked to my MAs. Tecnically the Cyrus was a better unit, but did sound disjointed compared to the Kandy.

Also room acoustics has a fairly significant say in how the overall system sounds.

So to answer the question: No.  

Like an AB amp then, which isn't all Class A

Thank you for the kind comment. Interestingly, there is a similarity of character between the AVR600 and the 35i. I tried a Coda CSI (quite good) and Moon i-7 (didn't like it at all) before settling on the MF (which really does sound very differnent to any AB amp)

Not just my experience, I suspect.

My experience of tone controls is that they are a rather crude device that don't really change the character of an amp...eg I suspect. a Cyrus with tone contols couldn't be made sound particularly like an Arcam....though it would be an interesting experiment.

Yup, everyone seems to have one, all right!

Correct to a certain extend. How much frequency variation an amplifier has with a variety of different speakers/loads is to some extend down to its output impedance, determined in turn on feedback/topology. The rest is down to many other factors, from the chosen volume control to powersupply but there is where it mostly differs at higher volumes and capability of supplying peak demands without clipping. My example was at volumes which are well within the capabilities of a decently designed amplifier. Some products are relatively unfazed by difficult speaker loads (which, in turn happens at different frequencies, depending on the design) ... others would struggle. BUT, used at a volume which is within the capabilities of the weaker amplifier and into a relatively benign load, leaving extreme examples such as some electrostatics out of the equation, with the help of some tone controls, would you really be able to tell the two different designs/makes apart?

regards

All my home dems have been with various amps connected to the RS6s and Arcam CD73. Also this is why when buying an amp I totally ignore specs: If it sounds "right", regardless of reviews I'll buy....

This could also answer why so many people rate active speakers: the amp section and speakers are obviously perfectly matched, which limits, to a certain degree, need for "absolute" system matching.

Yes, I agree, take the power issue out of the equation, in and around the same price bracket, there's minimal difference.

As I've found that the best components don't necessarily give you the best sound.

When amplifiers are clipping they definitely can sound very different.

 

Maybe we should be asking a different question though:

Do all amplifiers sound the same when they're not clipping and are driving speakers with a straightforward impedance load?

 

 

I think that I've heard small differences between amplifiers. I've got next week off work so I'm going to listen to a few different amplifiers and decide for myself if it's possible to beat the Harbeth challenge. I have to admit that I'm not totally confident that it can be done though. I'll update you all with my findings next week...

Probably not just in the same price bracket. An arcwelder of an amplifier will give you more volume and options as to what speakers to use but on a 'level playing field' and perhaps with the help of a little equalization, the results may surprise.

I agree with you on the other points raised and lests not forget, facilities, looks etc matter too.

regards

my friend has a pair of quad valve monoblocks, a quad pre amp and you guessed it..quad electrostatic speakers..anyway these bits of equipment have sent off for servicing, except for the speakers.i went round to see him and drink his beer! and he had a naim set up? to keep him going till the quads come back..mr flash! lol..i have never heard naim hifi and was interested in the sound, the naim equipment consisted of power unit, pre amp and power amp..the naim logo lit up when switched on..the power amp was heavier than my quad 909.so i was expecting to be bowled over the sound..naim being vey exspensive and naim owners on the whole are a smug lot who seem to think owning naim kit is the pinnacle of hifi achievement  and us poor lot with our mongrel kit are like a bad smell under their nose! hahaha..well the sound of the naim hifi was awful..i couldnt find anything in the sound i liked..the quad trounced it in every way...so there is a difference between amplifiers.a big one in my humble opinion..

Right, probably a better way to put it. My english is unfortunately not perfect.

Wishing you much fun with the comparison and looking forward to your findings but remember it really has to be done under controlled conditions ie. not by yourself and not sighted if you want a fair outcome. Further more, output/volume has to be levelled. Probably best done by measuring the voltage at speaker terminal level with a test tone. I would probably also include a model or two with tone controls to level things further.

regards

It depends what you mean by "sound" doesn't it!  Certainly amplifiers will not have identical frequency responses or dynamic ranges or power ouputs and therefore you woud expect to be able to measure differences (all else being equal).  Can you hear differences?  Well I would expect to be able to hear differences between well designed and poorly designed amplifiers and there should be some price correlation here.  I certainly believe that people think they can hear differences. 

Chris

You could blindfold me, intoxicate me, shove cotton wool in my ears and the difference would still be really obvious. Maybe you're right to a certain extent, maybe there is an element of different 'distortion patterns', but it's also true that some amps are just more musically transparent than others, as well as other differences unrelatd to their tonal bias. I once had a JVC AX440 I bought out my mum's Brian Mills catalogue. I thought it was the bee's keens. Then a mate lent me a Cyrus 1 and I couldn't believe how amazing this plastic-lidded shoebox sounded compared to my JVC, even though they were similarly priced. I could have sat there all day twiddling my JVC's tone controls and not get the same clarity and depth. (In fact you kind of had to use the tone controls on the JVC: it sounded flat and lifeless without them).

Cheers DM.

 

I don't have any equipment to check that the amplifiers are level matched and aren't clipping so it's far from ideal. I also don't have an A/B switchbox so it'll have to be a sighted comparison too.

 

The auditions that I'll do next week are only intended to be a preliminary test just to see if it's even going to be worth continuing. To do the test properly would require spending a bit of money on equipment which I'm not willing to do unless I'm 100% convinced that I could pass it. Even then I'd want to contact Harbeth first to ask them if there are any limits on the choice of amplifiers that I use. Would they have to be tonaly matched for example?