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Vladimir's picture
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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Toroid transformers are superior to laminated in every way. Laminated also humm, buzz, drip black goo etc.

If you bought a cheap dull knife, exchanging it for sharp flint rock to cut your cheese isn't the smartest way to go. 

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Vladimir wrote:

Toroid transformers are superior to laminated in every way. Laminated also humm, buzz, drip black goo etc.

If you bought a cheap dull knife, exchanging it for sharp flint rock to cut your cheese isn't the smartest way to go. 

 

Ah, is that why Audio Research, McIntosh to name two still predominantly use Frame transformers ...

regards

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Native_bon wrote:

davedotco wrote:

Richard Allen wrote:

Hi.

For what it's worth, I'm building an amp and I went to a toroid maker and gave him the spec I needed and he went out of his way to warn me that toroids do tend to hum a bit. When I asked him why he said that no 2 toroids are EXACTLY the same. One might buzz a bit under load and another won't. I asked him why and what I was told was that  toroids are essentially wound as 1 offs. At which point I said to increase the Va of the toroid and he advised me that if he did that the sound quality of the amp could be compromised ( spelt that right?? ).

With large transformers, the toroid is the less expensive way to go. True, a laminate won't buzz like that but it'll be twice the cost and huge and weigh a ton. Just seems to be something with toroids which seems to be exaggerated with 'c**p' on the mains line sometimes.

That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

I know this doesn't help the OP though because it's annoying when it happens although out of all the toroids I've used over the years, most of them have been NOVATEL and none of them have buzzed. Not even the 1000Va.

It is the combination of the characteristics of the toroid and the characteristics of the mains distortion that cause the problem. I have experienced mains so poor that virtually any piece of kit that you try will hum and buzz but that does not appear to be the issue here.

The previous amplifier was quiet and the likelyhood is that the next one you try will be too, inconveniant sure but surely not that big an issue when you have the assurance of the manufacturer that it will be sorted.

The reality is that this is a (relatively) mass produced amplifier built to come to market at about £1500. The transformer is, along with the case, the most expensive component in the amplifier so costs here are crucial.

As Richard points out a laminated transformer will be far more expensive, a 'guaranteed' noise free toroid could probably by built at a price, but would anyone buy an Ellicit-R at £2500?

And why should theyhave to, in my experience this sort of problem is relatively rare, and the number that can not be solved by swapping the amp for another sample rarer still. The amp is fine value for 90+% of the people who purchase it, that's just the way it is.

 

Edit. In my experience all brands of transformers that I have seen used in hi-fi can hum and buzz in certain situations.

Thats not just the it is... The way it is.. is do something about it. when you get so many people having the same problem from the same company then its a bad design. When this topic was brought up last year so many people report the same problems of huming..  with rega amps so this is not a case of just a one of or few amps..

I have bought some many amps including cambridge audio which uses a lot of toroid mains power & never once did I hear any huming...

You really don't get this do you?

It is a combination of circumstances that causes the issue, if you do not have those specific circumstances, you will not have a problem.

Your mains happen to be reasonably clean so you will not get a noise, if they are 'dirty' you may or may not get the noise.

Big toroids such as those used by Naim and Rega may be more susceptible to noise, but only in certain conditions. Naturally people who have an issue make a fuss, those, the vast majority, who do not have an issue, say nothing.

It's simple enough. You can put a big toroid in a £1500 amplifier, get a fantastc sound and for the vast majority a silent amplifier. Althernatively you can use a similarly priced but smaller transformer and get a less good sounding but perfectly quite (in all situations) amplifier.

It is not a "design fault", it is a business decision, hence my use of the phrase, 'that's just the way it is'.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

As Dave says, that is the way it is.

The main problem seems to come from dirty mains in these situations.

Example: Man 3 doors down your street uses a load of those mains ethernet plug thingies to connect his network and this will produce minute amounts of DC that float around on the mains. If you live next door to him you won't suffer. If you live next door but one you won't suffer. But if you live 3 doors either side of him, there's a chance you could suffer contaminated mains due to the fact that you're on the same electrical phase as he is.

To counteract this DC blockers are used I think within the IEC mains socket on the piece of HiFi equipment. If I'm wrong I'm sure Davedotco will correct me. EDIT!!!. Sometimes, 2 neoprene washers between the toroid and the chassis works.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

All well and good the guy from Rega being so helpful on a hi-fi forum, but clearly there's a genetic problem:

That's a bit below the belt. (Although 'the guy from Rega' being called Paul Darwin lends a certain irony to your unconscious stab at wit!)

Just speaking the truth. How many posts has Mr. Darwin made? If he or any other Rega employees or management contributed on a regular basis that would be acceptable. But they haven't until the muck hit the fan recently.

Still no reason to accuse Mr Darwn of having a "genetic problem".

Chebby I'm not accusing Mr. Darwin of having a personal issue, I'm talking about the "genetic problem" of their equipment. It seems to be running through a number of their products over recent times.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

drummerman wrote:

Ah, is that why Audio Research, McIntosh to name two still predominantly use Frame transformers ...

regards

 

Toroidal transformers are more efficient and even for the same rating as a laminated one, they will chuck out more current. For valve amps a laminated transformer is the way to go because tubes love voltage and hate current, the oposite case than MOSFET solid states. 

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

plastic penguin wrote:

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

All well and good the guy from Rega being so helpful on a hi-fi forum, but clearly there's a genetic problem:

That's a bit below the belt. (Although 'the guy from Rega' being called Paul Darwin lends a certain irony to your unconscious stab at wit!)

Just speaking the truth. How many posts has Mr. Darwin made? If he or any other Rega employees or management contributed on a regular basis that would be acceptable. But they haven't until the muck hit the fan recently.

Still no reason to accuse Mr Darwn of having a "genetic problem".

Chebby I'm not accusing Mr. Darwin of having a personal issue, I'm talking about the "genetic problem" of their equipment. It seems to be running through a number of their products over recent times.

Were you groping around for the word 'generic' then? 

It doesn't matter anyway. You gave me a laugh first thing this morning for which i'm grateful.

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Vladimir wrote:

drummerman wrote:

Ah, is that why Audio Research, McIntosh to name two still predominantly use Frame transformers ...

regards

 

Toroidal transformers are more efficient and even for the same rating as a laminated one, they will chuck out more current.

What a load of rubbish!!. True, toroids are more efficient but to say that they 'chuck out' more current than a laminate for a given Va rating is just plain wrong. A 500Va transformer is what it is whether laminate or toroid. Laws of physics n all that. :wall:

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

chebby wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

All well and good the guy from Rega being so helpful on a hi-fi forum, but clearly there's a genetic problem:

That's a bit below the belt. (Although 'the guy from Rega' being called Paul Darwin lends a certain irony to your unconscious stab at wit!)

Just speaking the truth. How many posts has Mr. Darwin made? If he or any other Rega employees or management contributed on a regular basis that would be acceptable. But they haven't until the muck hit the fan recently.

Still no reason to accuse Mr Darwn of having a "genetic problem".

Chebby I'm not accusing Mr. Darwin of having a personal issue, I'm talking about the "genetic problem" of their equipment. It seems to be running through a number of their products over recent times.

Were you groping around for the word 'generic' then? 

It doesn't matter anyway. You gave me a laugh first thing this morning for which i'm grateful.

Glad I gave a you a chuckle.

No, I did mean genetic or DNA of their recent products.

I'm not sure how Mr. Darwin "can work" with Steve. By my reading the noise is caused by isolation (or lack of) of the gizzards, so other than adding a mains conditioner I can't see a quick fix on this one.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Richard Allen wrote:

What a load of rubbish!!. True, toroids are more efficient but to say that they 'chuck out' more current than a laminate for a given Va rating is just plain wrong. A 500Va transformer is what it is whether laminate or toroid. Laws of physics n all that. :wall:

 

Ugh! Thats not what I meant, it came out stupid like that.  :wall:

 

- Electrical Efficiency

There are two important reasons why a toroidal transformer is more efficient than the stacked E/I lamination type. One is that the high quality grain oriented steel is utilized at close to 100% in all areas of the core. As a result, the core may operate at 15-16 kilogauss versus 12 to 14 kilogauss in the E/I design. There are no air gaps in the core, which means a no-load current draw of about 10% of that of a stacked lamination construction. The other reason is that the windings are distributed over the entire core circumference which reduces the mean length of copper wire per turn in comparison with the E/I transformer, the windings on which are located only on parts of its steel core. Accordingly, a toroidal design requires less steel and copper wire with less core and copper losses resulting in energy savings.

- Voltage Regulation

The voltage drop under load (regulation) is much lower than that of a conventional transformer. Increasing the core size can further reduce voltage drop.

Source

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

kikiso wrote:

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

 

Was it yours that had the over-heating problem or was that someone else?

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

Hi Steve ur making right decision keeping Elicit R in my opinion,mine has no hum and no other problems,sounds great and Rega customer support is second to none,i remember couple years ago i broke power button on my Mira3 when having a look insider then didnt fit case back on properly, rega fixed for free and paid to have couriered back to me at no charge for my stupidity,Mira 3 was years out of warranty i was able to phone direct to Rega and had amp back in 7 days so dont wory about problems down the line if my experiance is anything to go by,i do live in new house with good electric and have always used tacima mains filter which no doubt helps,as you know Elicit R sounds fantastic and looks amazing with bags of power,wonder if Rega have any plans to release some new power amps with new pre amp,they dont have any in there range as of now,exon 3 are discontinued,maybe Paul D can provide us with some info regarding replacement of exon 3 in future.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

kikiso wrote:

For what it's worth, I am a happy owner of an Elicit-R. It is the second one as the first had to be replaced when the right channel went wrong, but the one I have has been great, silent, the only noise coming from a nearby plasma telly when using the phono input and the volume very high. Given that Steve has not had this noise from his previous amps, it proves that there is not a major issue with his mains and hopefully the next amp will be fine.

I do agree that the amp sounds superb and understand why he would not want to go to another brand.

or it proves that the other amps contain some internal filtering. Naim still contains thumps at power on, like most amps from the 70's. Nowadays the power on is muted by most manufacturers. Naim have some idea that the mute circuits should impact the sound quality. QED.

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RE: Rega have let me down again!

stevienut wrote:

Hi Steve ur making right decision keeping Elicit R in my opinion,mine has no hum and no other problems,sounds great and Rega customer support is second to none,i remember couple years ago i broke power button on my Mira3 when having a look insider then didnt fit case back on properly, rega fixed for free and paid to have couriered back to me at no charge for my stupidity,Mira 3 was years out of warranty i was able to phone direct to Rega and had amp back in 7 days so dont wory about problems down the line if my experiance is anything to go by,i do live in new house with good electric and have always used tacima mains filter which no doubt helps,as you know Elicit R sounds fantastic and looks amazing with bags of power,wonder if Rega have any plans to release some new power amps with new pre amp,they dont have any in there range as of now,exon 3 are discontinued,maybe Paul D can provide us with some info regarding replacement of exon 3 in future.

A lovely, well thought out  system you have there. The Elicit R sounds very well with the R500s, and I've heard great things about the Nad M51.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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