Hoops and Cno,
I don't speak for others because I don't have their life etc.
All I have ever done when speaking about AVI ADM speakers is say what has happened to me and put forward AVI speakers as a possibility for others. I don't preach, I don't direct, I pass on my experience.
If people allowed me to just do that without making inaccurate comments then there would be no argument from me. I will however, respond when people are talking drivel, I am mis-quoted or quoted out of context.
There have been deliberately inflammatory comments made in the past by AVI owners[??], but for months now there has been a much more grown up debate and restraint by the mods. People need to respond to what is placed before them NOW and treat it on its own merits, not harp back to long gone wind-ups.
David @ a hifi dealers,
Unfortunately your involvement in this sort of conflict/discussion always leads me to ponder the same old question. What is the proportion of passive to active hifi that you sell, especialy if you exclude subs? How much income does this same group of products earn the dealership? This for me always taints your posts.
What worries me more is that you seem to be steering away from good and VFM AV amps partly because they are an attack on the British HiFi industry. If that is the bias you come from, then what value is your opinion as a balanced provider of the best products suitable for each individual? I quote below just in case it should get lost.
Somebody has mentioned it here, also think about AV amps, much better vfm.
While they're improving, integrated AV receivers will not represent as good value for money as far as two channel performance is concerned, and very few compete with a good two channel amp at half its price. I've seen the comments, and its just another crusade to try and overthrow other aspects of the British hi-fi industry.
As I almost always say [it is always my thought], if you have a passive system and you are as pleased with it as I am with my AVI ADM 9Ts then I am as pleased for you as you are for yourself. I also keep my testosterone clear of hifi.
Thank you for taking the time to read my contribution.
Apple Lossless - ATV3 - AVI ADM 40 or Marantz CD50SE (modded] - AVI ADM 40
also ATV3 into AVI ADM 9T [my wife's system] and Grado SR80i
I was speaking very generally; it just so happened that my comment was in reply to your post.....so apologies if I appeared to be insinuating anything different. Give me proactive / positive posts over reactive / negative ones, any day of the week.
"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." André Gide
Re the AVR thing. Stereo amp manufactures really need to offer more.
DAC inputs are nosing there way in, but with Spotify etc they need to do more.
Onkyos TX8050 should be the way to go, and I seem to remember a Peachtree amp with a slot for a Sonos.
Maybe I'm a bit cynical but one box to do it all would not be good for manufacturers ?
TV room : Samsung 60" plasma-ATV3, Denon DBP2012UD-Yamaha RXV3067-AVI ADM9RSS,MA RSW12,/Sonos ZP90 via optical, Sky+ HD & Sky Connector, PS3
HiFi : Sonos ZP90 - AVI ADM40
Bedrooms : 2 x Sonos Play 3
Ipad for Sonos & Spotify
AV receivers HAVE to offer more. Firstly because it is a very competitive market, but also because it is expected. Unfortunately more features generally come at the expense of overall quality.
There is a market for a do-it-all one box, and theyre creeping in. But there's also an equal, if not bigger market for those that just want a stereo amplifier.
David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry
Mitsubishi HC7000 / Oppo BDP103 / Audiolab 8200AP / Rotel RMB1575 / kick ass speaker system
Here, here. We are in total agreement there. I also take your point about, coincidental posting, comment. It saves a lot of time trying to explain why you are saying what you are.
Very little, due to demand. But we do sell active speakers, and if that is what people want, then that is what they can buy. But as I've said before, we get about two people a year asking for active speakers. If there was a higher demand, we'd stock more options. At the end of the day, we want to still be around in 10 years time rather than disappear because we've spent too much money offering options that just don't sell. The next five years will re-shape the hi-fi industry for some time to come. Whatever route that may be.
I think you misunderstand. AV amps arent an attack on British hi-fi, what is being said about them and the way they're being talked about on a certain forum is (like other subjects). And much of what is being said just isn't true. Yes, an AV receiver is better value for money on a feature vs feature basis, but not on sound quality - show me an AV receiver for <£1000 that will drive a quality hi-fi speaker as well as a similarly priced hi-fi amplifier. You can't put the same quality of amplification into a similarly priced AV receiver because much of the money is spent on numerous (in many cases, unneeded) inputs, audio and video processing, and all the license fees that come with that.
Without value for money products, the industry wouldn't survive, but it is, because there's more and more options coming out for people to choose from. Many people do go for value for money products, but others go for a product that suits them and their needs, not necessarily the one with the most connections and the most features. If someone calls up to book a demo to compare a hi-fi amp and an AV receiver in two channel mode aren't treated like idiots - I'll book it in and perform the demo fairly - I've done quite a few during the course of last year.
For the past five years or so, many people have been coming away from AV receivers and going back to hi-fi because they just don't listen to them any more - they miss the sound quality from the old hi-fi system they had before they got rid of it and changed to a "do it all" system.
David @ a hifidealer,
Ah yes, the chicken and egg explanation.
Thank god for forums, because otherwise I would never have been enlightened about MY hugely positive journey into actives. Little exposure in hifi magazines and blank faces, or worse, at every hifi dealer I have visited - including yours David.
It is a conundrum is it not? Stock and promote good actives on an equal basis and where does your DAC upgrade[for some actives],amp upgrade, cable upgrade, etc., etc., etc., go? Pretty much down the pipe to the sewage works [didn't use the word 'toilet' in case it is too rude] I would speculate.
So not the best way for traditional hifi dealerships probably? Since getting my AVI ADM 9Ts I haven't had the previously inevitable; if I just adjust this, or add that or get an even more ludicrously expensive cable of some sort feeling/need. 13 months of no add-ons or upgrades, the best period in my hifi life. But no add-on business for the hifi industry/dealers, so for ME there is certainly more than a little scepticism in the chicken and egg explanation.
Good of you to respond by the way. No histrionics either, jolly good.
Its all a conspiracy.. Why don't you start your own shop just selling actives?
Electrocompaniet PI 2 | Naim ND5 XS | Chord Epic | ProAc Studio 115
They also won't fill a 6 x 6m room (standmounts within budget).. Thats the point.
Of course they will. I have used them in similar conditions, also in schools, and at the NEC.
Agreed. My room is about 8x5m and I sit about 5 metres from the speakers, my mates ADMs easily fill the space. I'd want a sub with them as I listen to a lot of bassy music, however the newer 9RSS model has noticeably more bass than my mates 9Ts and would probably be fine for most music - Goldfrapp, Fink and Nirvana all sounded good on them, at least. That was in a pretty big room, too - probably 6 or 7 metres long.
Just as an addition to the Actives don't sell comments, at least a part of that is down to reluctance on the part of dealers to sell them. One of my local shops don't sell them because "How would we sell someone an amp upgrade?". A shame really, given how good they can sound.
Synology NAS + Audio Station - ATV2 - Benchmark DAC1 HDR - Event Opal
Do you think so? For me hifi is an enjoyment not a way of making a living.
I can only tell it from the point of view of how I see it. Personally, I've only had about four or five people ask me about active speakers in the 8 years I've been at Frank Harvey, and each time I will tell them that very few people ask about them and that they're just not that popular. You may have been one of them. If you were, you'll know that I don't speak negatively when I explain it.
Maybe we dont get asked for active speakers because it is a fairly new concept in the eyes of the consumer? Maybe it is because it is an unfamiliar concept in the eyes of the consumer? I don't know. But if it were your store, would you tie up thousands and thousands of pounds to offer a ranges of active speakers just because you feel it is the right way to go? History is littered with business failures because people thought they knew what people wanted.
Bear in mind that this active revolution that people are trying to initiate is niche at best. Lots of people may know about actives, but it is generally confined to forums, and specific forums at that. Hi-fi in general is a tiny minority of the UK population, and those that frequent forums is much smaller again. Those that know about actives are a fraction of those forum users. If actives were even half as popular as conventional speakers, it'd be worth considering keeping at least a range or two.
Some keep coming back to the upgrade thing. Upgrades don't keep us business, regardless of what anyone thinks. What keeps us in business is new customers, and happy new customers at that. Yes there are some people that are serial upgraders - they'll never change, but buying a bit here and there to upgrade doesn't keep a store open. This is why those nice little independent dealers who are out in the middle of nowhere have disappeared. They set up in nice small towns, or out on the coast. The population is small, and as mentioned. Those into buying a decent sound system are a small fraction of that. They reach saturation point, and unless they have a healthy online business going, they're only heading one way. Dealers situated inland, andfairly central have a larger catchment area and are more likely to survive. There's more to it than that, but that's a start. As I say, the next five years or so will define which direction this industry takes. But its all about new customers, not repeat customers. Not too many dealers realise that.
Nowadays there is almost a whole generation of people for whom seperates are the odd (or unfamiliar) concept because of the ubiquity of PC speakers and docks with integrated speakers/amplification.
To someone who has grown up with music from such devices it is natural that - when they upgrade - they expect to get bigger, better, more expensive versions of the PC speakers/docks they are used to.
A more expensive active/powered speaker, with amps built-in, would be assumed to be the norm. I have known many people (normal people rather than hi-fi anoraks) who have wondered what all the boxes 'do' (back when I owned seperates systems).
People with some knowledge of, familiarity with (and liking for), traditional hi-fi systems are going to get harder to find as they get older and the kids, teenagers and 20-somethings of today start to look for their high-quality systems of tomorrow.
I am not making any judgement of seperates/passive systems vs active systems in saying this. However - just as 1980s children grew up knowing only CDs and cassette Walkmans - 1990s and 2000s children have grown up with their music coming from computers with PC speakers and dock systems and MP3 players.
It is doubtful any significant portion of that generation will eventually 'convert' to seperates systems as hi-fis get ever more wireless and integrated.
Hi-fi dealerships will have to expect to deal more and more with their demands for less wires, less clutter and less boxes. Even Naim (the poster child of 1980s, flat-Earth, hi-fi purism) has recognised the direction things are going in. They have been very busy with integrated, one-box, wireless and networked products in the last few years. (Much to some of their traditional customer's disdain if you ever read their forums.)
The Linn Kiko (with it's active speakers and one box solution) is another example of what an early 2000s teen might be buying now if they want quality and exclusivity and they have a bit of cash.
Marantz M-CR603 + AirPlay • Rega R3 loudspeakers • iPhone 5 32GB • iMac • Apple Airport Extreme 802.11n • Panasonic TX-L32D25B • Sony BDP-S390 • Ruark Audio R1 Deluxe • Humax HDR-Fox T2
Hence hi-fi dealers now stock iPod docks, wireless speakers like those from Sonos and B&W, as well as PC speakers. Mini systems of all prices that stream music as well as take music from an iPod wirelessly. Small Sonos boxes that can be added to any hi-fi system to bring it up to date, as well as products with plug in modules, turning it into a streaming device as well as its primary function. And lets not forget virtually every AV receiver nowadays.
We appreciate that things are changing, and we're changing with it. But at the moment, conventional hi-fi systems (with or without a streamer) are still the majority.
We too doubt that many teenagers will grow up to buy a conventional hi-fi system. Who knows what they'll be buying. Whatever it is, it'll be something from a dealer that is changing to meet demands.
The answer to life, the universe and everything isn't 42. It's 9 or 40. For these are the model numbers used by AVI. Any hi-fi query and the answer's 9. Or 40. Doesn't matter what your room size is. Or your taste in music or hi-fi. The answer's always ADM9. Or 40. In the AVI universe anyway.
Unfortunately this is where paranoia takes you.
The answer to everything is not the AVI ADM 9RS/S or AVI ADM 40. But in many instances it is at least a consideration and as so few people are aware of the benefit of actives then owners of AVI ADMs put forward the suggestion. Not to wind you passive people up, because if you are as happy as I am then that is BRILLIANT. But because most of us[most=speculation] have years of 'not-quite-right' passive ownership that we have tinkered with to try and get the sound just right...
...I have to ask, what are you so scared about? The AVI ADMs won't eat your children, ravish your wife or constantly bleed your wallet dry. They were the answer to my 40 year journey, I was made aware of them via this forum and I am just passing on my experience so that others might not waste years and thousands £££££££££££ like I did.
Thank you for, hopefully, taking the time to read what I have said.
Live? Don't talk to me about live music!
I'm not one of those passive people. I'm not so easily pigeon-holed when it comes to hi-fi. I'm listening to my actively bi-amped system now.
I have a couple of observations about the pro-AVI posts on these forums.
1. They never mention the drawbacks of active systems.
2. AVI speakers are recommended when they are a long way from being the optimum solution.
I am prepared to back up statement number 2 by offering to compare my speakers to a pair of AVI 9's or 40's in a large room. This large room can either be at my home in West Yorkshire or at the Scalford Hall hi-fi show in March 2013. The ADM 9's may well fill a large room. And fill it well enough for some people's tastes. My contention is that a decent pair of much larger speakers would fill such a room better.
Who knows what they'll be buying. Whatever it is, it'll be something from a dealer that is changing to meet demands.
Or direct from a factory outlet, and thereby avoiding the need to pay a very large dealer markup.
Lots of HiFi dealers are ceasing to trade because they can't compete in the developing marketplace.
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