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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

Alas, no, I don't think so. Just more expansive.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

manicm wrote:
Well hey, if they trickle down the technology to the lesser amps then I'm all for it. At least, unlike the Linn DS at the start, this isn't an incomplete experiment they're charging customers for.

Well this is it. Firstly, it might be absolutely stunning, maybe even a gamechanger as far as accurate reproduction is concerned - we don't know, we've not heard it!

Secondly, most people forget that much of the technology and design aspects of their existing system came from high end products.

It's a standard thing though nowadays though isn't it - keyboard warriors at the ready to slag off anything new (despite not having, and probably never going to have, first hand experience of).

 

Good luck to Naim in their latest commercial enterprise, and I'm sure they'll have done their market research and identified a niche where they want a slice of the action.

However, on sonic grounds/claims....

Once you've made an amp transparent to the source - i.e. residual noise and distortion is below the level of audibility, and it provides sufficient current to driver the electric motor that is the voice coil of your loudspeaker, how do you improve it to make it a 'gamechanger' in terms of 'accurate' reproduction?

From a purely engineering POV, It's just doing it's job the same as any other competent amplifier - that straight wire with gain thing - nothing added, nothing taken away.

All else is individual subjective perception and marketing hyperbole.

It might(?) sound slightly, and I do mean slightly, as in the most subtle nuance, different to other equally competent solid state amps, but if you feel it is likely to be audibly different, let alone whether one could determine it to be better or worse in comparison to other equally competent amps, and in the context of a blind AB matched level test, or even better, blind, matched level ABX test, I await the results....

Of course, one could always avoid all of that and simply submit it to Richard Clarks amp test challenge, and see if you can win the $10,000.00 prize...

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

This is but one example where necessary marketing hype and subjective claims, meet objective reality.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

JMac... Cool

 

 

 

 

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

manicm wrote:

Ajani wrote:

philipjohnwright wrote:

I'm afraid I'm with the naysayers on this one, based purely on its price. Naim make very good equipment and I'm happy with the concept of premium pricing for a premium product. There is a limit though, and $200,000 is frankly way past it, whether it's Naim or any other manufacturer.

Put it into context, the same money buys you a brand spanking new Bentley. That is a premium product at a premium price but you can at least see where the cost comes from. Significant investment in R&D, a complex supply chain, high material costs, lots (compared to audio) of clever engineering etc etc. 

Ultimately if people want to spend that much on hifi (of any flavour) then it's their money. Those defending the ultra high end are often those bemoaning the lack of credibility that hi fi has these days though - it's not cool like it was in the 60's etc. No chance of returning to that position if we keep going in this direction. 

All of which is said with a twinge of sadness, not anger. And I'd quite happily live with Naim kit so I'm not bashing them per se. I just wish someone would lead by example. Yes I know, naive! 

Edit - add Light Harmonic's new $120,000 DAC to the argument so that it doesn't become an anti-Naim tirade. 

 

I respectfully disagree...

 

I think people blame the general lack of interest in HiFi on all the wrong things... I don't think very expensive statement products have much (if anything) to do with the lowered interest in HiFi compared to the 60s. 

 

What's happened to HiFi is the same thing that happened to radio and newspapers and later watching music videos on TV... Newer technology captures the public's imagination. HiFi will never return to the "Golden Age" simply because there are too many more advanced alternatives for the general public. 

 

Why would young persons get subscriptions to newspapers and magazines when they can read all the same info, at their convenience, online? Why listen to the radio when you could watch a music video on TV? Which evolved to: why wait around in the hopes of seeing a music video you like on TV, when you can instantly stream any video you want on Youtube? Tech changes and so too does the tastes of the general public. 

 

The thought of listening in a dimly lit room to the intricate details of the music and imagining the singer is in front of you on a stage is far too old school for many persons... Why not just watch a concert on your 60" HDTV? No need to close your eyes and imagine the singer, since now you can see him/her... 

Old school for who??? And your spotty teenage kid will soon demand a turntable. Some don't want to watch a concert on a TV because it's simply not the same as pure audio listening. And are there video concerts of all your favourite albums?? Yeah, thought not. It's important to seperate the wheat from the chaff, genuine progress from flavour-of-the-hour.

No you won't find concerts of every album, but you can generally find videos on Youtube (at least for more popular music).

 

Also, only audiophiles think turntables are in anyway a significant share of the market or seeing a comeback.... It's a niche market and will remain that way. 

 

Problem also is that other persons would refer to the Golden Age of HiFi as an example of "flavor-of-the-hour". 

 

As much as I enjoy my HiFi, I accept that it will never be as popular as it once was (at least not in the traditional sense). I'm sure more persons listen to music now than ever before, just not in the manner that audiophiles generally approve of...

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

chebby wrote:

Ajani wrote:

What's happened to HiFi is the same thing that happened to radio...

You mean like how you can now listen to it on FM, AM, DAB, Freeview and the Internet?  Or how you can stream it to any number of devices including smartphones and tablets? And use iPlayer for catch-up services, listening in real time and podcasts?

Or did you mean it was like radio inasmuch as 47.7 million listen to it every week (90 percent of UK population aged 15+) for an average of 21.7 hours per listener per week.  (Source RAJAR Q3 2013.)

Or maybe you meant it was like the way in which tens of thousands of internet radio stations from all over the globe can now be heard clearly even when you are out-and-about and just using a small phone and some earbuds. (Unlike the 'Golden Age' when a receiver the size of a suitcase was required to pull in distant stations with the aid of an antenna twice the height of the average house!)    

I think you picked the wrong medium for an example of something that has declined from it's 'Golden Age'.

 

NO. I didn't pick the wrong medium. Internet Radio is not based on radio waves. It's a different tech all together, just with a cute name... It shows that times have evolved. That's the point I was making.... 

 

If we limit HiFi to some audiophile approved home stereo system, then it's all doom and gloom and decline... if we actually look at how people consume music, we see that it is more popular than ever.  

 

So my point remains that it is NOT statement products that have resulted in the end of the "golden age of HiFi" but changes in technology and consumer preferences...

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

JMacMan wrote:

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

manicm wrote:
Well hey, if they trickle down the technology to the lesser amps then I'm all for it. At least, unlike the Linn DS at the start, this isn't an incomplete experiment they're charging customers for.

Well this is it. Firstly, it might be absolutely stunning, maybe even a gamechanger as far as accurate reproduction is concerned - we don't know, we've not heard it!

Secondly, most people forget that much of the technology and design aspects of their existing system came from high end products.

It's a standard thing though nowadays though isn't it - keyboard warriors at the ready to slag off anything new (despite not having, and probably never going to have, first hand experience of).

 

Good luck to Naim in their latest commercial enterprise, and I'm sure they'll have done their market research and identified a niche where they want a slice of the action.

However, on sonic grounds/claims....

Once you've made an amp transparent to the source - i.e. residual noise and distortion is below the level of audibility, and it provides sufficient current to driver the electric motor that is the voice coil of your loudspeaker, how do you improve it to make it a 'gamechanger' in terms of 'accurate' reproduction?

From a purely engineering POV, It's just doing it's job the same as any other competent amplifier - that straight wire with gain thing - nothing added, nothing taken away.

All else is individual subjective perception and marketing hyperbole.

It might(?) sound slightly, and I do mean slightly, as in the most subtle nuance, different to other equally competent solid state amps, but if you feel it is likely to be audibly different, let alone whether one could determine it to be better or worse in comparison to other equally competent amps, and in the context of a blind AB matched level test, or even better, blind, matched level ABX test, I await the results....

Of course, one could always avoid all of that and simply submit it to Richard Clarks amp test challenge, and see if you can win the $10,000.00 prize...

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

This is but one example where necessary marketing hype and subjective claims, meet objective reality.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

JMac... Cool

 

 

 

 

Good post.
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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

Ajani wrote:

manicm wrote:

Ajani wrote:

philipjohnwright wrote:

I'm afraid I'm with the naysayers on this one, based purely on its price. Naim make very good equipment and I'm happy with the concept of premium pricing for a premium product. There is a limit though, and $200,000 is frankly way past it, whether it's Naim or any other manufacturer.

Put it into context, the same money buys you a brand spanking new Bentley. That is a premium product at a premium price but you can at least see where the cost comes from. Significant investment in R&D, a complex supply chain, high material costs, lots (compared to audio) of clever engineering etc etc. 

Ultimately if people want to spend that much on hifi (of any flavour) then it's their money. Those defending the ultra high end are often those bemoaning the lack of credibility that hi fi has these days though - it's not cool like it was in the 60's etc. No chance of returning to that position if we keep going in this direction. 

All of which is said with a twinge of sadness, not anger. And I'd quite happily live with Naim kit so I'm not bashing them per se. I just wish someone would lead by example. Yes I know, naive! 

Edit - add Light Harmonic's new $120,000 DAC to the argument so that it doesn't become an anti-Naim tirade. 

 

I respectfully disagree...

 

I think people blame the general lack of interest in HiFi on all the wrong things... I don't think very expensive statement products have much (if anything) to do with the lowered interest in HiFi compared to the 60s. 

 

What's happened to HiFi is the same thing that happened to radio and newspapers and later watching music videos on TV... Newer technology captures the public's imagination. HiFi will never return to the "Golden Age" simply because there are too many more advanced alternatives for the general public. 

 

Why would young persons get subscriptions to newspapers and magazines when they can read all the same info, at their convenience, online? Why listen to the radio when you could watch a music video on TV? Which evolved to: why wait around in the hopes of seeing a music video you like on TV, when you can instantly stream any video you want on Youtube? Tech changes and so too does the tastes of the general public. 

 

The thought of listening in a dimly lit room to the intricate details of the music and imagining the singer is in front of you on a stage is far too old school for many persons... Why not just watch a concert on your 60" HDTV? No need to close your eyes and imagine the singer, since now you can see him/her... 

Old school for who??? And your spotty teenage kid will soon demand a turntable. Some don't want to watch a concert on a TV because it's simply not the same as pure audio listening. And are there video concerts of all your favourite albums?? Yeah, thought not. It's important to seperate the wheat from the chaff, genuine progress from flavour-of-the-hour.

No you won't find concerts of every album, but you can generally find videos on Youtube (at least for more popular music).

 

Also, only audiophiles think turntables are in anyway a significant share of the market or seeing a comeback.... It's a niche market and will remain that way. 

 

Problem also is that other persons would refer to the Golden Age of HiFi as an example of "flavor-of-the-hour". 

 

As much as I enjoy my HiFi, I accept that it will never be as popular as it once was (at least not in the traditional sense). I'm sure more persons listen to music now than ever before, just not in the manner that audiophiles generally approve of...

The Golden Age of HiFi was never flavour of the hour - you had the graphic equaliser phase, you had the turntable on the wall phase etc etc, but good amplification and source principles have remained the same for decades.

Currently I see Airplay and Bluetooth as flavour of the month.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

JMacMan wrote:

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

manicm wrote:
Well hey, if they trickle down the technology to the lesser amps then I'm all for it. At least, unlike the Linn DS at the start, this isn't an incomplete experiment they're charging customers for.

Well this is it. Firstly, it might be absolutely stunning, maybe even a gamechanger as far as accurate reproduction is concerned - we don't know, we've not heard it!

Secondly, most people forget that much of the technology and design aspects of their existing system came from high end products.

It's a standard thing though nowadays though isn't it - keyboard warriors at the ready to slag off anything new (despite not having, and probably never going to have, first hand experience of).

 

Good luck to Naim in their latest commercial enterprise, and I'm sure they'll have done their market research and identified a niche where they want a slice of the action.

However, on sonic grounds/claims....

Once you've made an amp transparent to the source - i.e. residual noise and distortion is below the level of audibility, and it provides sufficient current to driver the electric motor that is the voice coil of your loudspeaker, how do you improve it to make it a 'gamechanger' in terms of 'accurate' reproduction?

From a purely engineering POV, It's just doing it's job the same as any other competent amplifier - that straight wire with gain thing - nothing added, nothing taken away.

All else is individual subjective perception and marketing hyperbole.

It might(?) sound slightly, and I do mean slightly, as in the most subtle nuance, different to other equally competent solid state amps, but if you feel it is likely to be audibly different, let alone whether one could determine it to be better or worse in comparison to other equally competent amps, and in the context of a blind AB matched level test, or even better, blind, matched level ABX test, I await the results....

Of course, one could always avoid all of that and simply submit it to Richard Clarks amp test challenge, and see if you can win the $10,000.00 prize...

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

This is but one example where necessary marketing hype and subjective claims, meet objective reality.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

JMac... Cool

There's a law of diminishing returns in everything. Some may have never heard a Linn Sondek, let alone driven a F40. But why single out Naim's ambitions? Krell have always gone over the top. Naim want to push the envelope so what?? You do realise this is a hifi forum right? And thus you would take a technical interest right? You have the right to be cynical but do not pass judgement on what you do not know or haven't heard yet - didn't ABX testing teach you that?

One can question Naim and their customer's motives, but there's a natural fascination with technology and you'd be lying through your ears to deny that.

For me Naim's whole ludicrous exercise is fascinating if only to know which speakers they'd pair the Statement up with. And anyway, as insanely priced as it is, it's still not the most expensive audio kit on earth.

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

manicm wrote:

Currently I see Airplay and Bluetooth as flavour of the month.

AirPlay launched 2004.

Bluetooth since 1998.

I have been using AirPlay every day for about 33 months.

Here is something for you to enjoy whilst you fulminate about these young flibbertigibbets with their 'new fangled' gewgaws...

 

 

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

chebby wrote:

manicm wrote:

Currently I see Airplay and Bluetooth as flavour of the month.

AirPlay launched 2004.

Bluetooth since 1998.

I have been using AirPlay every day for about 33 months.

Here is something for you to enjoy whilst you fulminate about these young flibbertigibbets with their 'new fangled' gewgaws...

 

 

For houses without electricity, will not benefit to trickle down.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

manicm wrote:

But why single out Naim's ambitions? 

 

They're not being singled out, they just happen to be in the 'news'. Link us to another $200k hifi product WHF have reported on and I'm sure you'll get a similar thread reaction.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

BenLaw wrote:

manicm wrote:

But why single out Naim's ambitions? 

 

They're not being singled out, they just happen to be in the 'news'. Link us to another $200k hifi product WHF have reported on and I'm sure you'll get a similar thread reaction.

Easy - up until their Exakt Klimax DS system, I believe a full Klimax DS system from Linn could have easily set you $100k, depending on the amount of amplification - and some esoteric manufacturers would charge more.

But that's not the issue - I'm assuming that by participating in these forums one is interested in hifi, and would therefore be interested in the technology regardless of the price - huge or small - that's not the issue isn't it.

I guess what I'm saying here is that some responses here to the Statement have been entirely and disappointingly predictable, and takes all the fun out of hifi. For the love of God, Naim and their likes are not taking your taxes.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

People enjoy a number of things about this place and hifi fora in general I'd imagine, manic. And, if one of those things is taking the pee out of ridiculously expensive products, I guess you'll have to live with it.

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RE: Latest update from naim on its 500 series

Alec wrote:

People enjoy a number of things about this place and hifi fora in general I'd imagine, manic. And, if one of those things is taking the pee out of ridiculously expensive products, I guess you'll have to live with it.

Fine, to each their own, but it's infinitely more interesting and bearable than Martin Logan's yet another portable Airplay device - at least the Statement has given you millions more mileage. This must be what, the millionth comment now?

I cannot even remember the name of Monitor Audio's new and first amp - and who cares???? At least Naim made a Statement and for that you should be grateful you dull and dreary Luddites Blum 3 :grin:

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

chebby wrote:

manicm wrote:

Currently I see Airplay and Bluetooth as flavour of the month.

AirPlay launched 2004.

Bluetooth since 1998.

I have been using AirPlay every day for about 33 months.

Here is something for you to enjoy whilst you fulminate about these young flibbertigibbets with their 'new fangled' gewgaws...

 

 

I grab one in a heartbeat, but yeah like Airplay, so has McDonalds been around since hell knows when. Fast food for the ears. Not necessarily good for you ROFL

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RE: Naim Vertical Form - Active Speakers???

manicm wrote:

McDonalds been around since hell knows when. Fast food for the ears. Not necessarily good for you ROFL

What's the ROFL for?

The way it works is that you write something. Then we 'ROFL' if it's funny. You don't get to decide that.

Sorry to go off-topic from your antediluvian ramblings.

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

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