Original Naim Nait.
"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." André Gide
You can add the Linn Sondek to that list. A reputation built on pure hype. You need to spend a fortune just to get it working properly.
The classic LP12/grace/supex was a breath of fresh air in its day, nothing at anywhere near it's price could touch it, in the UK at least.
Also simple LP12/Acos setups were outstanding at a very modest cost, the basis of many outstanding inexpensive systems in their day. Most of the hype and the obscene pricing came later.
Garrard 401, Thorens TD124, Lenco GL various models, Sony PSX 6750, Pioneer PL71, Denon DP-5500, Onkyo CP 80M, Trio KP 8080, Yamaha YP-D51 etc etc etc are all better than the LP12 / Grace in key areas.
Albabrown, are you sure you meant the Technics SP10 and not the 1210?
Most of the SP10's I've seen have been standard. As in, add a plinth and an arm and cart and off you go.
I've heard a standard 1210 with a modded Rega arm and an Ortofon Rondo Bronze beat an LP12 / Ittok / Troika in a bake-off. I've also heard a standard 1210 with standard arm and moving magnet cartridge sound really bad compared to an LP12 / Ittok / Troika.
I was massively underwhelmed by the sondek considering its price.
I demoed several other cheaper TTs that just sounded much better IMO.
Monitor Audio BX5
Mmmh, my experiences with the following, bearing in mind it has been a loooong time since I heard or owned most of them;
Marantz CD63SE; soft/diffuse sound but nice to listen to. Probably due to high amounts of jitter measured. Got rid of mine a long time ago. Unless there are transport/laser replacements available, I'd advise caution with buying any vintage cd player. Same for any expensive new'ish ones.
Garrard Turntables; Only heard one, an 86SB (belt drive). Whisper quiet with a great motor.
Nad 3020; I can't even remember how they exactly sound but I never bothered to actually buy one so it can't be good . The prices they reach on the bay on occasion amuse me.
Rogers LS3 5A; A friend, musician and hifi shop manager owned a pair for a long time. Driven by Shearne pre/power it sounded absolutely gorgeous within its considerable limitations. - I'd love a pair but not at the prices of today and I'd be a little puzzled as to what to drive them with but probably a Naim XS would be on the list failing a vintage choice. - As the OP says, not neutral (for music) mainly because of its frequency response limitations (and the bextrene driver) but its origin are not as a wide band transducer. Still, this one and the little Harbeth 3's have something magical about them (other than the price tags).
Pioneer A400; Stilted and uninvolving. Again its been way to long to remember exactly so I might change my mind if I'd heard one today. It once made the 'short list' but lost out to a Magnum amplifier which in turn lost out to ... .
Pretty ... and pretty proud of it
Pioneer A-400 - Some proclaiming it to be the best amp below £1000 (it retailed at £230), and was recommended for use with very expensive sources. The only reason it worked better with higher end sources was due to it's lack of musicality and timing being masked by a feeding musically involving source to overcome the deficeit. Plus it couldn't drive larger speakers properly in the lower frequencies.
besides my tea is going cold and those digestives won't dunk themselves.
Yeah right. Not. Sorry but
Btw, have ice tea an extra digestive on me
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Musicraft (Derby), Specialist Hi-Fi/AV & Multimedia Dealer
good accurate audio monitoring and good sound reproduction to all
It just sounded flat to me.
David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry
Vinyl now available in store!
I am familiar with some of those players and quite frankly think you are hopelessly wrong on this one, TD124 apart they do not come close.
I know you have certain views and many of them are interesting and informative but not on this one. Not going to argue so we will not fall out.
Think of it as an alternative realiity.....
We do so many shows in a row,
And these towns all look the same,
We just pass the time in our hotel room
And wander 'round backstage,
Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,
And we remember why we came.
......oh no not another one!
Origin Live Aurora Gold+Illustrious Mk2 arm+Zyx R100-02/Stello CDT200+Stello DA220 dac/Tom Evans Groove Anniversary phono amp/Tom Evans Vibe preamp/Linear A power amp/Acoustic Zen Adagios/Chord cables/Oppo 105EU.
lack of musicality and timing
Could someone explain to me what a a component that 'lacks musicality and timing' actually sounds like?
Round Things > Boxes > Wires > Boxes > Walls/Ceiling/Acoustic Stuff > Ears > Brain
Here is quite a good explanation of PRaT (which includes Timing): http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html
If speakers bass cones don't start and stop precisely when they should, it turns the sound into a "sonic mess" and effs up the timing. This means the speakers have to be good, and the amp has to control them properly.
IMO. The opposite of a system that is musical (or has musicality), is one that sounds cold, emotionless, sterile and analytical.....a bit like computer generated music versus that composed and performed by a skilled Artist. A sound engineer wants a system / speaker to analyze the mix, where I want a system to portray the emotion and intention of the musicians
For me this is achieved by brands like Audio Note, Sonus Faber, Icon Audio, Pathos.
NB. This is just my personal view and is certainly not written in stone.
... or blood I hope.
Good description though cnoevil.
The key areas I was thinking of were bass crispness and pitch stability, followed by midrange clarity.
I own a well serviced LP12 / Ittok / Troika.
I find that LP12's are great for Simon and Garfunkel's Mrs Robinson. Not so good for Bachman Turner Overdrive's Not Fragile, nor Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.
And of course, if you put a rubbish arm and a rubbish cart on a turntable and compare it to a worse turntable with a better arm and cartridge then it's possible that the worse turntable will sound better in those conditions. And also if you place a non-suspended turntable on a floor mounted stand close to your speakers it's possible that a suspended design would sound better. And if you're not in control of the demo, it's always possible that the demo's rigged.
And I don't fall out with anyone, just because they have a different view on a piece of hi-fi to me. That would be ridiculous. It would be like falling out with someone because they supported a different football team to me.
If you ever get an easy chance I'd recommend that you compare an LP12 against a good idler or direct drive, with the idler or direct drive being well isolated from the speakers, as well as having an arm and cartridge that is at least as good as the one on the LP12 you are comparing it against.
Blood and Tears!
Nice to know someone else agrees.......but you would, as you are Alear and can hear what I'm talking about.
Right on brother! (at least I assume it's brother) ....tell it like it is!
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