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altruistic.lemon's picture
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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

Audio Note AN/E go as low as 18 Hz (at -6 dB), which I don't think is possible without room interaction...but I'm no expert.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

I didn't say it could AL, but I don't want a boomy speaker, so I needed one that delivers well controlled bass, that is tight, gives a good impression of a bassline without the flab and sits well in the lounge at home.  

So, when I hear Chris Squire's bass string at the beginning of  Starship Trooper, I want to hear the "thrumm" of the string vibrating as he's hit it.  I want to hear a realistic (to my ears) thump in a tom-tom when it's been struck and the DC4 manages this.  Sure a 4" driver won't give you PA levels, but it can do a good facsimile up to a point.  The TNT Audio review brings this out more as it's a longer review.  

Apologies to the OP, who has probably left the building by now, that your thread was completely derailed by an argument over an adjective, however, the point is that it's best to make your own mind up.  Opinions, as shown, vary!

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

CnoEvil wrote:

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

Audio Note AN/E go as low as 18 Hz (at -6 dB), which I don't think is possible without room interaction...but I'm no expert.

Yes, but with an 8" bass driver in a large(ish) cabinet of 31" (Height) x 14" (Width) x 10.5" (Depth) with a wide baffle compared to most modern loudspeaker designs (the cabinets are wider than they are deep).

That, and it's 95dB efficiency, would ensure significantly deeper bass than a 4" driver (with some 'piston' area already lost to a concentric tweeter - as opposed to a dust-cap - in the case of the Tannoys) in a much smaller and thinner cabinet with hardly any baffle area to interact with compared to that of the AN-Es.


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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

chebby wrote:

Yes, but with an 8" bass driver.

My Kef Refs have 2 x 8" drivers, but with their inert cabinet can only manage 35 Hz ((@ -6 dB):

http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/reference_series/fact_sheet/Floorstanding/205.2/index.html:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

chebby wrote:

That, and it's 95dB efficiency, would ensure significantly deeper bass than a 4" driver (with some 'piston' area already lost to a concentric tweeter - as opposed to a dust-cap - in the case of the Tannoys) in a much smaller and thinner cabinet with hardly any baffle area to interact with compared to that of the AN-Es.

The only point I'm trying to make, is that the room can add to the bass, especially if the cabinet is designed that way.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

It's my understanding that What Hi-Fi test small speakers in similar sized rooms to those they're likely to be used in.

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

They probably do, but rooms are furnished differently, and laid out differently.  Mine has the speakers out by around three feet from the back wall, facing my sofa, there's a window with heavy curtains to my right and a big armchair to the left that sits opposite the windows and looks out to the sea.  The room is also carpeted and the seats all have heavy throws and cushions.  The speakers themselves are about six or seven feet apart.  

 

My room isnt acoustically treated (it's a home), nor is it bereft of furnishings and if anything, the area where the stereo is sited is more like room 3 (the other half being given over to the dining table and the sideboard) than room 1.  http://www.whathifi.com/how-we-test

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Brib7 wrote:

These minituare Tannoy's have 4 inch drivers and only go down to 67 Hz apparently, they cannot reproduce deep bass, they just won't move enough air. 

thats the thing, your talking about 'shifting air' thats volume, its not frequency range

 

From any other poster, this level of ignorance would be staggering. 

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

Another worrying aspect of the DC4s that can be even more detrimental then lack of bass is that the reviewers suggest that when driven hard they can sound bad. This is quite possible as the 4 inch speaker can be easily overwhelmed at high volumes. The cone movement needs to be significant to reproduce bass notes so the speaker will run out of movent with a bit of power and low frequencies. However, the speaker still needs to reproduce the delicates mids while doing this. Now imagine if the speker has reached maximum excursion then at that point the speaker will start distort. All those delicate midrange frequencies will be blurred causing the speker to sound stressed. Is because of this reason I suggested to go and get a subwoofer and stop driving the DC4's with any frequencies below 80-100Hz. This will stop the cone have excessive movements when driven hard and allowing it to go louder without sounding stressed. Thinking about this, in fact any small speakers that are mated with a subwoofer should have some sort of filter to stop low frequencies getting to them as they cannot be reproduced anyway and affect the rest of the sound negativelly if allowed to get though.

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

I imagine most people wouldn't drive them hard, to that extent, but in my experience, they can go to a decent level when partnered with a decent powered amp.  However, I draw your attention to the TNT Audio review again which comments on volume levels of a kind I likely don't go to.  In the interests of some balance here:-

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/tannoy_dc4_e.html

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RE: My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

Brib7 wrote:

OK.

 

Excellent.  Missed this first time around.  Glad that's sorted out now.  Cheers Max.

Anonymous
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Get some warmer speakers

Tariqv

I'd be inclined to change your speakers if you're still not satisfied after repositioning them. I'm a firm believer in building a system outwards, thus you can change the last component in the chain to 'balance' any extremes or coldness/warmness the previous separate had. The M-DAC is a quality product and handles flac files very well. The Roksan Kandy K2 once again is an excellent amp with the ability to handle many different genres of music as well as being easy to partner.

I'd trial some warmer speakers, that are more dynamic and alive, ones that are also known for creating a wider soundstage. Obviously your room/furniture will be affecting the acoustics. 

Also, don't forget, the Tannoy Dual Concentric design also means that the tweeters don't quite fill the room and create as wide soundstage as standard dome shaped tweeters, thus the speakers overall will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot (as you've found by repositioning them).

I'd be very interested to hear your views if you do audition any other speakers as I was also looking at the Roksan Kandy K2 amplifier. 

Note to the other lads - let's try and discuss without name calling? We can all differ in our views and argue our points respectfully, whether we agree with each other or not!

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RE: Get some warmer speakers

miggyboys wrote:

Also, don't forget, the Tannoy Dual Concentric design also means that the tweeters don't quite fill the room and create as wide soundstage as standard dome shaped tweeters, thus the speakers overall will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot (as you've found by repositioning them).

It is my understanding that Tannoy's Dual Concentric and Kef's Uni-Q drivers in fact do the opposite. Since the sound comes from the same "point source", it is "time aligned" in all directions, thus giving more coherent off-axis listening and so a bigger sweetspot.

I agree about trying warmer speakers, and suggested some at the start of the thread.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Get some warmer speakers

Very true Cno, the soundstage is wide, and far from narrowly defined.  I'm often surprised at how wide sounds can be dispersed, especially for TV or movies.  Not the first time I've jumped hearing at sound that appears to be coming from the far left of the room!  I imagine that the DC6T would do the same. 

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