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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

I guess that's fine but I remain concerned that some people might be spending large amounts of money on items which don't actually do anything on the basis of purely subjective opinions.  

WHF have always asserted that their reviews are their opinions, & readers should demo the products themselves prior to purchase.

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

John Duncan wrote:
...whilst using a number of ad hominem arguments against journalists in a 'they would say that wouldn't they' sort of way. Yes, I liked that one. I am stealing 'lolocaust' for future use.

Actually I don't think I did.  The point was about the credibility of WHiFi "experts" to judge equipment and I don't think I said they were bad people or dishonest or indeed anything like that.  I did question Andrew's assertion that because they do a lot of it that makes them good at it, which is palpably not a sensible argument.  I did put in a throwaway line about journalists but that surely isn't a pejorative term, although it obviously touched a nerve.  You'd have thought I called them bankers (or whoever the current hate figures are).  Smile

The more I think about it the stronger is the analogy with "Top Gear".  There is obviously a market for subjective reviews of things and WHiFi seems to be filling that niche.  I guess that's fine but I remain concerned that some people might be spending large amounts of money on items which don't actually do anything on the basis of purely subjective opinions.  Caveat emptor maybe?

Chris

Why is it palpably not a sensible argument ? Pls show your workings....

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

Actually I don't think I did.  The point was about the credibility of WHiFi "experts" to judge equipment and I don't think I said they were bad people or dishonest or indeed anything like that.  I did question Andrew's assertion that because they do a lot of it that makes them good at it, which is palpably not a sensible argument. 

Chris

As a matter of interest, what do you think it takes to make someone expert enough to judge hifi, as there are no specific degrees with which to qualify you for it?

Simply understanding the engineering behind it, doesn't necessarily mean that you would make a good judge, or have the literary skills to write about it. Most "papers" written by engineers are almost unreadable by the ordinary layman.

As I see it, the person who has the best hope of judging how well something performs, is somebody with a lot of experience of listening to a huge variety of kit, and then has the ability to describe the sound as accurately as possible, while trying to keep personal bias out of the equation.

If a reviewer loves the sound but describes it accurately, it should still be possible to get a reasonable guide as to whether it will suit....even if you are likely to disagree them about what "good" should sound like . After all, magazine reviews should only be part of the process of drawing up a short list. 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

The more I think about it the stronger is the analogy with "Top Gear".  There is obviously a market for subjective reviews of things and WHiFi seems to be filling that niche.  I guess that's fine but I remain concerned that some people might be spending large amounts of money on items which don't actually do anything on the basis of purely subjective opinions.  Caveat emptor maybe?

Chris

Only WHF filling the niche for a reviewer's thoughts?  David Price and co are doing alright at Hi Fi CHoice, Noel Keywood doing the same with his team at Hi Fi World.  There's Hi-Fi+, Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, ToneAudio (an online only title), the last three being US titles, but readily available via Zinio.  

This is what narks me about this petty little crusade the naysayers appear to have taken up, it's focused on one title and it's incredibly unfair.  People passing comments on the qualities of the journalism, the experience, the supposed "snake-oil" conspiracy to empty the pockets of the unwary...please.    

You guys go off with your actives, your £30 supermarket DVD players and £1.50 optical cables and have a nice life.  Thanks, but I can do my own reading-up, make my own choices, form my own conclusions and really don't need to be told that, hey, I'm getting it all wrong by anyone.  WHF (and its ilk) helps me do that - and sometimes I just need to read what somebody else thought about a product.  I can do the rest.

 

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

John Duncan wrote:
...whilst using a number of ad hominem arguments against journalists in a 'they would say that wouldn't they' sort of way. Yes, I liked that one. I am stealing 'lolocaust' for future use.

Actually I don't think I did.  The point was about the credibility of WHiFi "experts" to judge equipment and I don't think I said they were bad people or dishonest or indeed anything like that.  I did question Andrew's assertion that because they do a lot of it that makes them good at it, which is palpably not a sensible argument.  I did put in a throwaway line about journalists but that surely isn't a pejorative term, although it obviously touched a nerve.  You'd have thought I called them bankers (or whoever the current hate figures are).  Smile

The more I think about it the stronger is the analogy with "Top Gear".  There is obviously a market for subjective reviews of things and WHiFi seems to be filling that niche.  I guess that's fine but I remain concerned that some people might be spending large amounts of money on items which don't actually do anything on the basis of purely subjective opinions.  Caveat emptor maybe?

Chris

Agreed. Unfortunately it is an absolutely undisputable fact, that the WHF review team are very susceptable to the placebo effect, as they imagine differences in picture and sound between various digital cables, when such differences are impossible. This does indicate very strongly that experience does not equate to being very good at something.

Now people can say what they want about the above, but it's either true, or, WHFs reviews of digital cables are completely fabricated. It can only be one or the other!!!

 

 

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Dynamight wrote:

Unfortunately it is an absolutely undisputable fact, that the WHF review team are very susceptable to the placebo effect, as they imagine differences in picture and sound between various digital cables, when such differences are impossible. This does indicate very strongly that experience does not equate to being very good at something.

Now people can say what they want about the above, but it's either true, or, WHFs reviews of digital cables are completely fabricated. It can only be one or the other!!!

 

Or that you're wrong. And I suspect that's nearer the truth of it all than what you're doing with your little crusade.

The trouble is, you try to act as an authority (yet again), state some stuff you've found on the web, or off Ashley on the AVI forum, come on here spouting off like you know-it-all, and of course anything that doesn't fit your recently found world-view is naturally placebo.  But of course it is.

Yet - as I pointed out earlier - my own experience (as pointed out earlier) puts your simple take on the world into touch and I'm rather glad and happy that it did. 

Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

the record spot wrote:

Dynamight wrote:

Unfortunately it is an absolutely undisputable fact, that the WHF review team are very susceptable to the placebo effect, as they imagine differences in picture and sound between various digital cables, when such differences are impossible. This does indicate very strongly that experience does not equate to being very good at something.

Now people can say what they want about the above, but it's either true, or, WHFs reviews of digital cables are completely fabricated. It can only be one or the other!!!

 

Or that you're wrong. And I suspect that's nearer the truth of it all than what you're doing with your little crusade.

The trouble is, you try to act as an authority (yet again), state some stuff you've found on the web, or off Ashley on the AVI forum, come on here spouting off like you can prove it, and of course anything that doesn't fit your recently found world-view is naturally placebo.  But of course it is.

Yet - as I pointed out earlier - my own experience (as pointed out earlier) puts your simple take on the world into touch and I'm rather glad and happy that it did. 

ad hominem
Anonymous
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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

the record spot wrote:

Dynamight wrote:

Unfortunately it is an absolutely undisputable fact, that the WHF review team are very susceptable to the placebo effect, as they imagine differences in picture and sound between various digital cables, when such differences are impossible. This does indicate very strongly that experience does not equate to being very good at something.

Now people can say what they want about the above, but it's either true, or, WHFs reviews of digital cables are completely fabricated. It can only be one or the other!!!

 

Or that you're wrong. And I suspect that's nearer the truth of it all than what you're doing with your little crusade.

The trouble is, you try to act as an authority (yet again), state some stuff you've found on the web, or off Ashley on the AVI forum, come on here spouting off like you know-it-all, and of course anything that doesn't fit your recently found world-view is naturally placebo.  But of course it is.

Yet - as I pointed out earlier - my own experience (as pointed out earlier) puts your simple take on the world into touch and I'm rather glad and happy that it did. 

Out of respect for Andrew, JD, Ben, Cno and the WHF regulars (and because I've got better things to do), I'm bowing out of this now, but I'll leave you with some advice, "get some help"..
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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Don't let the door, etc, etc...remarkable though, that for someone with so many better things to do, the amount of time spent slagging off the magazine or audiophiles appears to be your number one endeavour here and on the AVI forum on a frequent basis.  What's left?!?

And of course, big fat LOL at the "with respect to Andrew..." having ripped into his colleagues.  Never mind the amount of snarky comments about audiophiles and you come on here being whiter than white?  Take it somewhere else.

And you accuse me of an ad hominem?  Go find a mirror son.  

 

Anyway, here's an appropriate one for you Maxy, cheerio now!

 

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Dynamight wrote:

"get some help"..

 

Yes, you should.

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RE: more 'snake oil'

Shame these comments become personal. I recon most wish to know how best to improve their system and how best to spend their money. I think the debate centres around issues which are not easily 'proveable'. Latest WHF test a good example. HiFi racks and their solidity/structure has been shown to have some effect using a reasonable subjective test procedure. Hence, we can have some faith in comments and reviews on these items. With other kit and sadly I need to suggest cables, certainly digital, I have not seen similar articles which suggest their IS any perceivable difference. I think I deserve to know this info before investing a significant amount.

Enough!

Yamaha V2065. MS Mezzo 5.1 Panasonic 42. Sony BD. Garrard 86SB. WD Live TV. SkyHD.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/lounge-hc-signature-update-bass-traps

 

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RE: more 'snake oil'

I understand your point Robin, but my own experience - and others - would suggest there are differences, albeit minor - the magazines do make it clearer now that there is a debate round cables, and any buyer out there I'd expect to have enough suss about them to then go to a dealer who'll permit a try-before-you-buy arrangement.  Many do.  

What I take issue with, in terms of Max-the-outgoing, is the manner in which he goes about it.  Re-registering under amny different guises having been booted several times would suggest that the boy's got a problem (amusingly, it's apparently me needing the help...).  This has been going on with him for ages now and it doesn't do the forum here any good.  They all start out reasonable, but they end up going down the same tired old route.  He's off for now, but no doubt, like Fu Manchu, the forum will hear from him again.   Smile

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Dynamight wrote:
Out of respect for ......the WHF regulars

Never seen that before.........

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

Jacko wrote:

Dynamight wrote:
Out of respect for ......the WHF regulars

Never seen that before.........

 

ROFL

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RE: more 'snake oil' RE: more 'snake oil'

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