What I dont understand really is why nobody holds the manufacturers of speakers, amps, cd players etc to task for letting aftermarket third party cable companies muddy the waters and cream massive amounts of cash out of punters pockets.
There should be a universal standard of cable that is scientifically proven to transmit noise from one end to the other properly without electrocuting anyone, and then that gets put in the box with whatever you're buying. Its not difficult really.
Or is there some financial connection between the device sellers and the cable people? Am I being massively naieve here?
The market is now so saturated, there are even companies out there devoted to selling magic headphone cables that will somehow transmit your music the 2 foot from your phone to your ears so much better than the standard cable you've been using! Look, its all shiny and futuristic looking - it must be an upgrade!
What utter nonsense. People have become so totally unaware of whats really important. Just think about your favourite album and the moments when hearing it has had the most impact on you. Most of my treasured memories are not forged from times spent sitting like a startled rabbit at the perfect apex of a triangle between my speakers, straining like a mentalist to assess bass control and mid range bloom. No, they're mostly from hearing music on speakers in smoky bedrooms after graphic acts have been performed. EDITED by MODS - House Rules.
Form and content have become confused. Does this three hundred quid hdmi cable make the black on your giant tv seem, um, more black than it did before?
I mean, do you think there's a forum out there where kettle owners are debating the best mains cable to use for making the perfect cuppa?
How much money and time and effort is wasted on this tail chasing? If we had proper governments, they'd be employing people to kick any shyster making these claims.
It was good up to here; I like shoes.
Formerly known as al7478...
HC: Panasonic PXP 42 V20; Panasonic DMP BD35; Humax Foxsat-HDR
Music: Optical out from Asus P7H55-M Motherboard into AVI ADM 9.1 speakers.
"Music will provide the light you cannot resist"
You know better than this Cno, you must be tripping up over your own arguments. Galileo didn't have to change because of what was 'known', it would be because of prevailing doctrine / dogma. The argument works against you, because it is an example of someone being forced to go along with 'belief' rather than 'evidence'. The evidence, I'm afraid, is all against things like cables making a difference.
Again, it depends on how you twist it (and to give you credit, you are good at twisting it!). Galileo had to fight his corner against a tide of people who "knew better". At that stage I believe he had strong evidence that needed further validating. If, as I believe will happen, it will be proved that there are perfectly sound scientific reasons for the differences I'm hearing, then my opinion will be validated. That is the only point I'm trying to make.
Just because creationists use it, is neither here nor there, and is getting away from what I'm saying....though it so happens to suit your counter argument. The "dogmatic" that I was referring to was not in what was said, but the way in which it was said. I feel strongly, but try not to bludgeon others into my point of view.
Until you actually try some of this and hear (or not) for yourself, I will never be able to convince you. I have heard the benefits many times and have converted complete cable sceptics ,who were totally convinced the improvements from the likes of mains cables were impossible (through our own blind tests). Religious fundamentalists are a red herring, as their views are not supported by science, whereas with this, the jury is still out.....I am hoping the likes of Shunyata will prove that there are sound scientific principals to account for the improvements that many hear.
You are a worthy adversary, who always robustly argues your point (and always likes to have the last say!)...but much as I've enjoyed the sparring, I don't think it's going anywhere, except round in circles.
One of these days you will realize I'm right!
There is an alternative.
Subjective reviews are always prone to error - placebo effect, you make a change, you expect a change, you hear a change.
It is scientifically proven that the placebo effect exists. Double Blind Testing is used to remove this aspect.
As such, people conduct their own tests, yet seem to refute that they are subject to the placebo effect, yet offer no scientific evidence that they are immune to this effect.
Since the subjectivists state that Double Blind Testing is flawed, since they can hear the difference when they change a cable, and that science is flawed since it cannot provide a scientific explanation as to why there are differences, then the proposal is :
We are all connected telepathically in a subconscious manner, and it is this that lets people believe that they hear a difference since they are subconsciously told what cable is being listened to.
Subjectivists cannot argue against this as being the reason, since their argument is that science does not have the tools/method/measurements to state why cables sound different, which is the same as that science cannot prove that we are or are not linked telepathically. Hence both assertions stand up in the subjectivist world.
Have you tried upgrading your laces?
Don't use them, but might start to, as velcroe is a rip off.
I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!
And just to clarify. I have an open mind. I am willing to be proved wrong. But there are some aspects of this debate which I do have fairly firm beliefs.
Anything over 16/44.1 is pointless for playback (for humans)
Analogue cables affect sound(but for the most part to such a small extent as to be inaudible)
Most (not all) people(including me) cannot distinguish a 320 Kbps MP3 from the lossless version.
Digital cables that sound different are broken.
Stability mats make zero difference...unless they are truly groundbreakingly good at what they do and you listen in an earthquake.
DACs or rather analogue outs from different sources can sound very different. But once you get to a certain level they are pretty much the same unless colouration is a part of the design.
Cables that look cooler and are beautifully wrapped sound better, but only when you can see them.
A £5000 CD player made of aircraft grade steel, weighing 30 kg will be so much better than a £300 best seller. But not when you don't know it's the one playing the CDs. In fact, if I pretend it's a £30 DVD Tesco-value DVD player it will sound dreadful...And vice versa.
Speakers almost all sound different, even blind.
Well designed active speakers will sound better than any speaker, amp combination at the same price, depending on your poison.
Vinyl and tubes are for people who also like the look of Instagram photographs Noisy, low-res but fun.
“Out beyond ideas of wrong and right, there is a field.
I'll meet you there."
Trying to change this are we?
Paul's BR/805 system thread
(where the photos live) Paul's Flickr page
I like this stolen from an article on another thread:
“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..”
This is CraigM (of this and other parishes)'s signature.
HiFi / A/V / Bedroom
One of the forum members has that (or part of it) as his 'signature'.
Written originally by J. Gordon Holt (founder of Stereophile) in 2007 in an email reply to John Atkinson (the incumbent editor)...
Marantz M-CR603 + AirPlay • Rega R3 loudspeakers • iPhone 5 • iMac • Apple Airport Extreme 802.11n • Apple iPad Mini • Panasonic TX-L32D25B • Sony BDP-S390 • Ruark Audio R1 Deluxe • Humax HDR-Fox T2
Exactly the bits I was going to quote!
I love polite threads.
Mordaunt Short Mezzo System C - 8,5,1,9.Yamaha V2065. SonyS570. Panasonic 42in., Sky HD 1TB. Garrard 86SB. PF30. Wii. WDTV Live. Harmony One. STAX300. QED cabling. Galaxy Tab 10.1
System Photos - http://s1051.photobucket.com/user/robinkidderminster/library/?sort=3&page=1
Base trap Project - http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/corner-base-trap-completed-project?page=1
Not bad considering it started out as a thread about support materials.
Audio Editor, Gramophone
Cable makers sometimes show measurements for both analogue and digital cables. They find images where the signal looks more intact or smoother, or for digital cables where it has a bigger 'eye' where the signal varies between a 1 and a 0. They then suggest that makes for a better signal and improved SQ.
But, as you say the differences are inaudible and the suggestion of a link to SQ is like claims about build quality or materials used. There is no established connection between any of that and SQ.
Internet - laptop - DAC - amp - lots of headphones.
"A music lover will stop what he's doing and stay glued to a favorite piece of music even if it's coming over a 3" speaker or a public-address system..." - Ken Rockwell
Not any more. I still agree with it though.
I'd also like to say I agree with all of idc's posts and like the manner with which he has made them, but because this has been such a polite thread I'll avoid any further contribution.
Synology NAS + ATV2 > ADM9RS
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