436 posts / 0 new
Last post
The_Lhc's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 51 min ago
Joined: 16/10/2008 - 13:23
Posts: 12938
RE: more 'snake oil'

Biggerboat wrote:
My point stands.

In your mind, maybe.

Anonymous
Anonymous's picture
RE: more 'snake oil'

The_Lhc wrote:

Biggerboat wrote:
My point stands.

In your mind, maybe.

 

Lol. My mind is not to be trusted.....

Anyway, it's true. I think we can all agree on the following statements:

1) Snake oil doesn't taste very nice

2) You cant put three men or women in a soundproofed room and conduct double blind tests without getting into trouble.

 

Alec's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 14 hours ago
Joined: 08/10/2007 - 21:06
Posts: 6078
RE: more 'snake oil'

Biggerboat wrote:

What I dont understand really is why nobody holds the manufacturers of speakers, amps, cd players etc to task for letting aftermarket third party cable companies muddy the waters and cream massive amounts of cash out of punters pockets.

There should be a universal standard of cable that is scientifically proven to transmit noise from one end to the other properly without electrocuting anyone, and then that gets put in the box with whatever you're buying. Its not difficult really.

Or is there some financial connection between the device sellers and the cable people? Am I being massively naieve here?

The market is now so saturated, there are even companies out there devoted to selling magic headphone cables that will somehow transmit your music the 2 foot from your phone to your ears so much better than the standard cable you've been using! Look, its all shiny and futuristic looking - it must be an upgrade!

What utter nonsense. People have become so totally unaware of whats really important.  Just think about your favourite album and the moments when hearing it has had the most impact on you. Most of my treasured memories are not forged from times spent sitting like a startled rabbit at the perfect apex of a triangle between my speakers, straining like a mentalist  to assess bass control and mid range bloom. No, they're mostly from hearing music on speakers in smoky bedrooms after graphic acts have been performed. EDITED by MODS - House Rules.

Form and content have become confused. Does this three hundred quid hdmi cable make the black on your giant tv seem, um, more black than it did before? 

I mean, do you think there's a forum out there where kettle owners are debating the best mains cable to use for making the perfect cuppa?

How much money and time and effort is wasted on this tail chasing?  If we had proper governments, they'd be employing people to kick any shyster making these claims.

 

It was good up to here; I like shoes.

shadders's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 19/11/2009 - 13:59
Posts: 131
RE: more 'snake oil'

CnoEvil wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

You know better than this Cno, you must be tripping up over your own arguments. Galileo didn't have to change because of what was 'known', it would be because of prevailing doctrine / dogma. The argument works against you, because it is an example of someone being forced to go along with 'belief' rather than 'evidence'. The evidence, I'm afraid, is all against things like cables making a difference. 

Again, it depends on how you twist it (and to give you credit, you are good at twisting it!). Galileo had to fight his corner against a tide of people who "knew better". At that stage I believe he had strong evidence that needed further validating.  If, as I believe will happen, it will be proved that there are perfectly sound scientific reasons for the differences I'm hearing, then my opinion will be validated. That is the only point I'm trying to make.

Quote:
Nonetheless, your 'balance' argument is exactly that used by creationists. They wish for their point of view to be put on an equal footing with that corroborated by (an abundance of) evidence. It is not wrong or dogmatic to say that should not happen.

Just because creationists use it, is neither here nor there, and is getting away from what I'm saying....though it so happens to suit your counter argument. The "dogmatic" that I was referring to was not in what was said, but the way in which it was said. I feel strongly, but try not to bludgeon others into my point of view.

 

Quote:
To continue the analogy, religious fundamentalists argue their views should have equal footing because 'so many people' hold those views. Hifi and cables are not worth getting as excited about as the (mis)education of children. So telling people to keep an open mind is fine, and as IDC has said people may still get their moneys worth due to their perception of it. But for now, I do not feel uncorroborated subjectivism should be given equal status to the science and evidence that suggest things such as cables do not make a difference.

Until you actually try some of this and hear (or not) for yourself, I will never be able to convince you. I have heard the benefits many times and have converted complete cable sceptics ,who were totally convinced the improvements from the likes of mains cables were impossible (through our own blind tests). Religious fundamentalists are a red herring, as their views are not supported by science, whereas with this, the jury is still out.....I am hoping the likes of Shunyata will prove that there are sound scientific principals to account for the improvements that many hear. 

You are a worthy adversary, who always robustly argues your point (and always likes to have the last say!)...but much as I've enjoyed the sparring, I don't think it's going anywhere, except round in circles. 

One of these days you will realize I'm right!

There is an alternative.

Subjective reviews are always prone to error - placebo effect, you make a change, you expect a change, you hear a change.

It is scientifically proven that the placebo effect exists. Double Blind Testing is used to remove this aspect.

As such, people conduct their own tests, yet seem to refute that they are subject to the placebo effect, yet offer no scientific evidence that they are immune to this effect.

Since the subjectivists state that Double Blind Testing is flawed, since they can hear the difference when they change a cable, and that science is flawed since it cannot provide a scientific explanation as to why there are differences, then the proposal is :

We are all connected telepathically in a subconscious manner, and it is this that lets people believe that they hear a difference since they are subconsciously told what cable is being listened to.

Subjectivists cannot argue against this as being the reason, since their argument is that science does not have the tools/method/measurements to state why cables sound different, which is the same as that science cannot prove that we are or are not linked telepathically.  Hence both assertions stand up in the subjectivist world.

Regards,

Shadders.  

Anonymous
Anonymous's picture
RE: more 'snake oil'

Alec wrote:

Biggerboat wrote:

What I dont understand really is why nobody holds the manufacturers of speakers, amps, cd players etc to task for letting aftermarket third party cable companies muddy the waters and cream massive amounts of cash out of punters pockets.

There should be a universal standard of cable that is scientifically proven to transmit noise from one end to the other properly without electrocuting anyone, and then that gets put in the box with whatever you're buying. Its not difficult really.

Or is there some financial connection between the device sellers and the cable people? Am I being massively naieve here?

The market is now so saturated, there are even companies out there devoted to selling magic headphone cables that will somehow transmit your music the 2 foot from your phone to your ears so much better than the standard cable you've been using! Look, its all shiny and futuristic looking - it must be an upgrade!

What utter nonsense. People have become so totally unaware of whats really important.  Just think about your favourite album and the moments when hearing it has had the most impact on you. Most of my treasured memories are not forged from times spent sitting like a startled rabbit at the perfect apex of a triangle between my speakers, straining like a mentalist  to assess bass control and mid range bloom. No, they're mostly from hearing music on speakers in smoky bedrooms after graphic acts have been performed. EDITED by MODS - House Rules.

Form and content have become confused. Does this three hundred quid hdmi cable make the black on your giant tv seem, um, more black than it did before? 

I mean, do you think there's a forum out there where kettle owners are debating the best mains cable to use for making the perfect cuppa?

How much money and time and effort is wasted on this tail chasing?  If we had proper governments, they'd be employing people to kick any shyster making these claims.

 

It was good up to here; I like shoes.

 

Have you tried upgrading your laces?

Alec's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 14 hours ago
Joined: 08/10/2007 - 21:06
Posts: 6078
RE: more 'snake oil'

Don't use them, but might start to, as velcroe is a rip off.

fr0g's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 2 hours ago
Joined: 07/01/2008 - 18:38
Posts: 2947
RE: more 'snake oil'

I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!

 

And just to clarify. I have an open mind. I am willing to be proved wrong. But there are some aspects of this debate which I do have fairly firm beliefs. 

Anything over 16/44.1 is pointless for playback (for humans)

Analogue cables affect sound(but for the most part to such a small extent as to be inaudible)

Most (not all) people(including me) cannot distinguish a 320 Kbps MP3 from the lossless version.

Digital cables that sound different are broken.

Stability mats make zero difference...unless they are truly groundbreakingly good at what they do and you listen in an earthquake.

DACs or rather analogue outs from different sources can sound very different. But once you get to a certain level they are pretty much the same unless colouration is a part of the design.

and...

Cables that look cooler and are beautifully wrapped sound better, but only when you can see them.

A £5000 CD player made of aircraft grade steel, weighing 30 kg will be so much better than a £300 best seller. But not when you don't know it's the one playing the CDs. In fact, if I pretend it's a £30 DVD Tesco-value DVD player it will sound dreadful...And vice versa.

Speakers almost all sound different, even blind.

Well designed active speakers will sound better than any speaker, amp combination at the same price, depending on your poison.

Vinyl and tubes are for people who also like the look of Instagram photographs Smile Noisy, low-res but fun. Wink

 

 

 

 

Paul.'s picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 45 min ago
Joined: 26/11/2010 - 21:44
Posts: 2997
RE: more 'snake oil'

fr0g wrote:

Vinyl and tubes are for people who also like the look of Instagram photographs Smile Noisy, low-res but fun. Wink

Erm...

fr0g wrote:

I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!

Trying to change this are we? Blum 3

fr0g's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 2 hours ago
Joined: 07/01/2008 - 18:38
Posts: 2947
RE: more 'snake oil'

Paul Hobbs wrote:

fr0g wrote:

Vinyl and tubes are for people who also like the look of Instagram photographs Smile Noisy, low-res but fun. Wink

Erm...

fr0g wrote:

I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!

Trying to change this are we? Blum 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0HHX4Ur9g

Covenanter's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
Joined: 20/07/2012 - 10:16
Posts: 1318
RE: more 'snake oil'

I like this stolen from an article on another thread:

“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..”

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 21/11/2010 - 20:21
Posts: 6352
RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

I like this stolen from an article on another thread:

“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..”

 

This is CraigM (of this and other parishes)'s signature.

chebby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 39 min ago
Joined: 02/06/2008 - 09:40
Posts: 16113
RE: more 'snake oil'

Covenanter wrote:

I like this stolen from an article on another thread:

“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..”

One of the forum members has that (or part of it) as his 'signature'.

Written originally by J. Gordon Holt (founder of Stereophile) in 2007 in an email reply to John Atkinson (the incumbent editor)...

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/

"We are currently awaiting the loading of our complement of small lemon-soaked paper napkins for your comfort, refreshment and hygiene during the journey."

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 21/11/2010 - 20:21
Posts: 6352
RE: more 'snake oil'

Paul Hobbs wrote:

fr0g wrote:

Vinyl and tubes are for people who also like the look of Instagram photographs Smile Noisy, low-res but fun. Wink

Erm...

fr0g wrote:

I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!

Trying to change this are we? Blum 3

 

:grin: Exactly the bits I was going to quote!

RobinKidderminster's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 27/05/2009 - 14:24
Posts: 2519
RE: more 'snake oil'

I love polite threads.

Cheers

Yamaha V2065. MS Mezzo 5.1 Panasonic 42. Sony BD. Garrard 86SB. WD Live TV. SkyHD.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/lounge-hc-signature-update-bass-traps

 

Andrew Everard's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 30/05/2007 - 12:34
Posts: 28836
RE: more 'snake oil'

fr0g wrote:
I have to just say, this has been possibly the most polite "cable" debate ever!

Not bad considering it started out as a thread about support materials.

Pages

Log in or register to post comments