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mikefarrow's picture
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more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?
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if upgrading to a speaker with more drive units, does this result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

for example if you moved from the 4 drive unit b&w cm9 to the 5 drive unit cm10 which has an extra bass driver, do you simply get more/deeper bass output or do you get a fuller more solid sound as long as your amplifier can control all those drive units ?

alternatively, if upgrading to a more powerful amp, does this usually result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

once again if you own the 4 drive unit b&W cm9 matched with the 200w musical fidelity m6i amp and you swapped to the more powerful 500w m6 500i model would this help "fill out" the sound creating a fuller more 3d image ? 

thanks in advance for advice.

 

 

 

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

It's all a big fat "it depends".

Some higher powered amps sound better than some lower powered amps. And vice versa.

Some multi driver speakers sound better than some single or two driver speakers. And vice versa.

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

mikefarrow wrote:

if upgrading to a speaker with more drive units, does this result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

 

No.

 

It's possible that the sound would be more distorted.

 

JC

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

mikefarrow wrote:

if upgrading to a speaker with more drive units, does this result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

for example if you moved from the 4 drive unit b&w cm9 to the 5 drive unit cm10 which has an extra bass driver, do you simply get more/deeper bass output or do you get a fuller more solid sound as long as your amplifier can control all those drive units ?

alternatively, if upgrading to a more powerful amp, does this usually result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

once again if you own the 4 drive unit b&W cm9 matched with the 200w musical fidelity m6i amp and you swapped to the more powerful 500w m6 500i model would this help "fill out" the sound creating a fuller more 3d image ? 

I'm not sure that "a fuller more solid 3d sound" is a single phenomenon and hence that it can be achieved by changing one element in a system.

"Fuller" is a bit ambiguous: do you mean more bass extension? Or do you mean a larger soundstage?

A "more solid 3D sound" implies that the soundstage is larger in 3 dimensions and that the instruments occupy fixed positions within it. This might have nothing to do with bass extension. For instance, some two-way speakers create superb 3D imaging with relatively high bass roll-off.

But it sounds to me as though the effects you're after have more to do with speaker presentation than with amplification. I mean, you might get better results with a higher-specced amp, but these (theoretical) better results might be in terms of dynamics, not bass response and imaging.

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

Some proper measurements and technical analysis might be useful.

 

JC

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

jcbrum wrote:

Some proper measurements and technical analysis might be useful.

In this case, I very much doubt it.

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

As a very generalised answer to your question a 'fuller' sound is a subjective term often used to describe having more or deeper bass. This is likely to need bigger speakers and a more powerful amplifier.

 

By a '3D' sound I assume that you are reffering to the stereo image? This is likely to be achieved by having speakers with less phase distortion and using smaller enclosures.

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5 > AVI subwoofer

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable - Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

jcbrum wrote:

mikefarrow wrote:

if upgrading to a speaker with more drive units, does this result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

 

No.

 

It's possible that the sound would be more distorted.

 

JC

According to whose theory? So all high-end loudspeaker makers are wasting their time with 3-way speakers?

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Does more complexity equal

Does more complexity equal greater fidelity? What do you think?

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

Based on personal opinion, then yes generally speaking, the more drivers means, in theory, a bigger sound. The problem with multi-drive speakers is some have trouble with driver integration. Regards the 3-D sound, the same applies IMHO - good integration should demonstrate better imaging.

This is what Monitor Audio do very well: They may not be everyone's cup of char but integrate beautifully.

At the end of the day it's about finding the sweet spot between amp and speaker. Once that's achieved then depth and imaging should slot into place.

Amp; CDP; Turntable; Tuner; Speakers

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

plastic penguin wrote:

Based on personal opinion, then yes generally speaking, the more drivers means, in theory, a bigger sound. The problem with multi-drive speakers is some have trouble with driver integration.

Some have trouble with normal 2-way designs as well. JCBrum's statement was a woeful generalisation.

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

manicm wrote:

jcbrum wrote:

mikefarrow wrote:

if upgrading to a speaker with more drive units, does this result in a fuller more solid 3d sound ?

 

No.

 

It's possible that the sound would be more distorted.

 

JC

According to whose theory? So all high-end loudspeaker makers are wasting their time with 3-way speakers?

 

I think it's highly probable that many of them are.   They end up with very compromised designs, in which the crossovers intrude heavily into the critical response areas, and at best produce varying degrees of distortion, which some people claim to prefer.

 

Good headphones generally produce better fidelity than multi-driver loudspeakers.

 

Headphones are not as pleasant to use in a domestic sitting room for recreational purposes, ime, however, many younger people use them a great deal.

 

Ideally a perfect loudspeaker would comprise a single full-range transducer, which acts as a point source.  This is not acheivable with current technology, so transducers (drivers) have to be limited to their acceptable performance ranges.  

 

The crossovers are the critical devices employed to do that, and are usually not very good at it.  IMO, active crossovers do the job better, but it would be best if no crossovers were needed, or at least the number employed be kept to a minimum.

 

One way to do that would be to make the best two-way loudspeaker possible, and employ a separate sub-woofer, with a tailored response, so as to achieve the 'crossover' acoustically.  i.e. no electronic crossover for the bass region.

 

JC

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

manicm wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

Based on personal opinion, then yes generally speaking, the more drivers means, in theory, a bigger sound. The problem with multi-drive speakers is some have trouble with driver integration.

Some have trouble with normal 2-way designs as well.

Indeed that's right. But you know that if integration is wayward then that has a knock-on effect with imaging, and overall cohesion.

Remember hearing, many moons ago, Wharfedale's E70s, which had more cones than an ice cream seller. The bass and treble was beautiful but the integration and imaging was woeful. As a consequence I puchased the babies of the range: E20. They were the polar opposite, although the compromise was a little less grunt.

Amp; CDP; Turntable; Tuner; Speakers

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

Six Nations Rugby has just started on the telly.  I'll be back later  :grin:

 

 

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

thanks for all input/replies.

has anybody actually upgraded to a more powerful amp from the same company (like the m6i to the m6 500i) ?

if so which, model of component changed plus sound quality results ?

same with speakers, have you upgraded to the model above (with more drive units) ?

once again, which make/model of speaker changed from/to plus sound quality differences.

thanks again.

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RE: more drive units or more power equals fuller more 3d sound ?

I haven't upgraded from fewer drive units to more within the same range, but I have done a few demos of this kind. For instance, comparing the 2-way Sonus faber Cremona Auditor Ms against the 3-way SF Cremona Ms (I preferred the 2-ways and bought them). I also compared the 2-way SF Olympica Is with the 3-way Olympica IIs: I preferred the 3-ways.

Which just goes to show how important implementation is and how in many cases experience trumps theory.

Talking of theory, and going back to jcbrum's post:

jcbrum wrote:

The crossovers are the critical devices employed to do that, and are usually not very good at it.  IMO, active crossovers do the job better, but it would be best if no crossovers were needed, or at least the number employed be kept to a minimum.

One way to do that would be to make the best two-way loudspeaker possible, and employ a separate sub-woofer, with a tailored response, so as to achieve the 'crossover' acoustically.  i.e. no electronic crossover for the bass region.

You can pretty much forget all of that when you move from dynamic speakers to electrostatics, as the amount of distortion created by a good electrostatic is a couple of orders of magnitude lower than for dynamic speakers. In theory a decent passive electrostatic will beat a decent active dynamic speaker hands down.

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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