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Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s with audioquest cable

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Crocodile's picture
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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Is it really bi-amping? I'd be surprised if a unit at this price point had two power amp stages. More likely bi-wiring through the A/B selector which uses the same amp.

Might be worth replacing the speaker links & see how a straight single wire connection sounds.

ID.
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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Crocodile wrote:

Is it really bi-amping? I'd be surprised if a unit at this price point had two power amp stages. More likely bi-wiring through the A/B selector which uses the same amp.

Might be worth replacing the speaker links & see how a straight single wire connection sounds.

I agree. It might be that they are trying to make it sound more impressive than it is, or it relates to something being lost in the translation from Japanese. 

e.g. from my reading it seems like what we'd call oversampling is often referred to as upsampling in Japanese. Many refereences to active speakers seem to be specifically computer speakers, while studio monitors are often called powered monitors.

It's a shame it has lost the metal casing, but I suppose it is a budget product built, as Chebby pointed out, to a certain budget. Anyone handy enough to offer case mods providing a milled aluminium case with wooden cheeks?

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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

ID.]</p> <p>[quote=Crocodile wrote:
...as Chebby pointed out, to a certain budget. Anyone handy enough to offer case mods providing a milled aluminium case with wooden cheeks?

I accept they have to build to a budget, but does it have to be the same budget as three years ago?

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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

SiUK wrote:

Problem solved. the bright sound was beginning to freak me out a bit so I stuck my Mission 751s on the end but other than an increased level of detail and slightly worse stereo image sound was still bright with little bottom end integration.  so, stu k the MCR610 back into single amp mode, removed my new biamp cables and connected my old and more expensive 2 to 4 bi-wire cables to the Marantz and concept 20s. incredible. Brightness gone rich sound back again. now of course it is either bi amping or the cables or even both. all I know is it is a massive difference in biwire.  So may have just wasted 80 quid on the new cables...most of cost was actually terminations. I was considering snipping ends of new cable and turning them into biwire set to test. but may just flog them on ebay or something.  anyhow. Anyone considering this combo in biamp mode should think twice...well don't do it.

I don't get it (and didn't have time to rewind), but at first you swore by the biamp mode, what's changed since?

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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

@ ID.

Quote:
It might be that they are trying to make it sound more impressive than it is

Well for me it had the totally opposite affect and I can honestly say the sound in comparison is asbolutely flamin' awful. I am extremely surprised just how awful it is in bi-amp mode as Marantz themselves push the bi-amp abilities. One moment I was thinking I'd forked out a load of money for a cheap off the shelf hi-fi and the next (out of bi-amp mode) I'm back up hearing with my own ears that I've actually got something far superior and baring little resemblance to what I was listening to. I don't exaggerate either. I checked to make sure I wasn't going mad and that the bi-amp mode was actually on and it was.

The Audioquest FLX-SLiP 14/4 I bought for upstairs setups makes the CR610s and 2010is sound teriffic together but the cable isn't of course in biwire configuration upstairs and is twisted together to make a single run. The reason I got more FLX-SLiP - but in bi-wire config - is  I needed longer more flexible cables downstairs without paying out too much and it was such a huge improvement for the upstairs units I thought it would do the trick. I suspect that the problem may not be related at all to the cable but almost singuarly to the bi-amp mode...it just isn't right. Brighter minds will no doubt be able to work out what is going on but I am just enjoying the absolute relief that what I have sounds fantastic for the money.

As I was poncing about unplugging and plugging cables and resiting the units (because my existing Audioquest Crystal bi-wire speaker cable is only a 2 metre pair and means the CR610 has to be centred between the speakers for it to reach the terminals on the Marantz) I thought I'd unplug the Boston Acoustics sub from the NR1504 and stick it in the CR610. Crikey! I played back a high resolution flac of Bridge over troubled water played on a church organ and couldn't stop laughing it was so incredible. Switched it back for now but if I feel the need I'll defintiely switch it over (even if it is a PITA). I can think of a number of CDs that would sound incredible with tthe bottom end filled in.

 

Needless to say I'm back to being chuffed Laughing ...and definitely relieved! Phew!

 

 

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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

@manicm

In an earlier post I said 'something has changed' soundwise or some such comment. I think I was hoping it was going to get better. The soundstage  in bi-amp mode is wider and taller and articulate which at first is very captivating but you soon start wondering why it sounds so disjointed. Didn't know what exacyly was going on because of all the changes but as I played more and more different types of music on the final setup it became glaringly apparrent that the sound was just not right and at all and I was basically putting up with it in the hopes it would improve...which it didn't.  I am thinking about swtiching the main unit with one of the units I have upstairs just to make absolutely certain that there isn't something amiss with the CR610 downstairs. All I can tell you is that out of biamp mode the problem is gone and I'm not waiting any longer for the Concept 20s to burn in to enjoy the music.

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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

According to Marantz's own information the 610 contains 4 x 30 watt amplifiers, that 'can be configured in a variety of different ways'.

It is clear that in bi-amp mode, both sets of terminals are driven by their own amplifiers, ie 4 x 30 watts.

In normal stereo mode using Speaker A you get 2 x 60 watts but it is not absolutely clear what the situation is when using two independant pairs on Speaker A and Speaker B.

So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section, probably pretty important in a relatively low powered amplifier.

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RE: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Had enough now. Got a big brain ache from switching cables and units and listening.

Discovered without any doubt that all of the M-CR610s basically sound the same in bi-amp mode. But also that none of them sound anywhere near as good in biamped mode compared to when they are biwired with my old AQ Crystal cable hooking them up to the speakers. In bi-amp mode they are detailed, precise like I previously said, but not 'knitted together' and the upper frequencies just don't gel together with the bass, which kind of evaporates away. Hard to explain. The music just loses something and it becomes even more apparrent with brighter music.

For anyone else, I'd wait for a review from What Hi-Fi as I'm sure they'll give it a good going over and report back without all the toing and froing.

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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Quote:
So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section,

Actually, that did flicker across my circuits. Maybe you're right, just not enough power to deliver bi-amped...well not with these speakers at least.

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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Read my post above, the amplifier is configured differently in normal and bi-amp modes, not surprising that it sounds different.

Further it is worth remembering that the overall power capability is limited by a modest capacity power supply and split between 4 separate amplifiers it is not surprising that it does not go very far.

 

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We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

Yeah, reread. Sorry, understood now. Thanks for info.

To be honest I'm just glad it is sounding so good now...don't care whether it is biwired or biamped as long as it is a pleasure to listen to...which it is now. Also glad I didn't prematurely sell my AQ Crystal cables! Shall be hanging on to them now for sure.

 

 

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ID.
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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20s

davedotco wrote:

According to Marantz's own information the 610 contains 4 x 30 watt amplifiers, that 'can be configured in a variety of different ways'.

It is clear that in bi-amp mode, both sets of terminals are driven by their own amplifiers, ie 4 x 30 watts.

In normal stereo mode using Speaker A you get 2 x 60 watts but it is not absolutely clear what the situation is when using two independant pairs on Speaker A and Speaker B.

So, put simply, in bi-amp mode you have significantly less power on the all important bass section, probably pretty important in a relatively low powered amplifier.

 

I stand corrected. Thanks for checking that properly

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RE:

Seriously guys,

What do u think if I pair the 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156 or even the KEF LS50? I don't have a chance to to audit them is such pacakge in my local shops. But did saw some online dealer offering the 610 and ls50 as bundle package. 

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RE:

magnus78 wrote:

Seriously guys,

What do u think if I pair the 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156 or even the KEF LS50? I don't have a chance to to audit them is such pacakge in my local shops. But did saw some online dealer offering the 610 and ls50 as bundle package. 

I know this is probably heresy as it applies a little bit of 'scientific' knowledge to the above situation, but I see it like this.

The LS50s in particular are generally considered to be quite difficult to drive, not impossible by any means but not that easy. The 610 has a total maximum power capability of 55 watts, allowing a few of those watts to operate all of the other functions of the unit and allowing for some losses in the power supply, each amplifier channel has a continuous power of about 20 watts to play with.

Now, the Marantz engineers have gone to some lengths to make the power supply as flexible and resilient as possible so, providing the choice of speakers is sensible, on a music signal the 610 is pretty capable.

However make the circumstances rather more difficult, driving a pair of LS50 for example, then the amplifier is working a bit harder, turn up the volume a bit, add a little bass boost (not exactly unusual with small speakers) and you could be in trouble. The power supply that is now working rather harder may find itself running out of power, the headroom that coped so well with music peaks is missing and the sound will become strained.

 

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We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

And wander 'round backstage,

Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,

And we remember why we came.

Jackson Browne

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RE: New stuff: Martantz M-CR610 & Concept 20

Hi Davedotco,

how about 610 with Wharfedale Diamond 156?