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BigH's picture
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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

I have read elsewhere that the 

HARMAN KARDON HK980

 

Is a powerful amp. that can handle difficult loads, think you can get these still for around £250 - £290, it is fairly old now but maybe what you need.

 

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

Wow 15.00! I'd have blown my ears off lol. We didn't get to that though with the Marantz, with just one set of Dalis the highest we got was just past 12pm before it kicked off and I think I bit higher with a lesser bass track. 

 

We do like the Yamaha stuff, I grew up with Yamaha, my Dad had their very top end stuff though. We did look at the Yamaha AS500, not listened to one though.

 

Sitting here listening to our old Yamaha and Yam cd player with the two sets of Dalis, sounds really clear at high voloumes, but those are too high for my ears and probably our neighbours, we are detached but only by several feet........it is at lower volumes it looses the clarity I'm looking for. I like clarity (don't we all lol) The Marantz had enough for us (more would be great, but it had enough) Our current Yamaha has enough loud but not enough at low volumes, I cannot really pick out the details of anything below the 9.00 clock position. It goes up and up this amp, I had it to 15.00 position and it was still clear and not distorting but my ears nearly flew off Smile Hubby is currently subjecting me to the 10pm position with Dire Straits Money for Nothing.......:)

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

BigH wrote:

I have read elsewhere that the 

HARMAN KARDON HK980

 

Is a powerful amp. that can handle difficult loads, think you can get these still for around £250 - £290, it is fairly old now but maybe what you need.

 

 

Interesting thanks very much. We have not owned a Harmon Kardon amp before, but we do have one of there speaker surround systems on one of our computers, sounds great in a small room.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

For me  Yam AS 500 has plenty of details and a magical horizontal image, but a little bright for my taste ( I lived with it for 5 days...);

with his smart loudness you can have good sound at very low vol (in night time); have a test in shop or, better    Dance 4  , at home...

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

GCE wrote:

For me  Yam AS 500 has plenty of details and a magical horizontal image, but a little bright for my taste ( I lived with it for 5 days...);

with his smart loudness you can have good sound at very low vol (in night time); have a test in shop or, better    Dance 4  , at home...

 

Sounds good. Do you know of any stores that will let you try amplifiers at home? To give you an idea of our amp taste, lots of people raved about the Pioneer A400, we have one and we don't like i that much, we like our Yamaha more and our old Denon PM7 something (it is upstairs and I cannot remember the exact model) Our current Yam amp is very good on very well produced CD's and great through DAB radio. However, most of our CD's are not that will produced. It sounds excellent with George Michael Ladies and Gentlemen, but rubbish with many other CD's. Could that be down to the CD player? Sorry loads of questions.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

If an amplifier makes a speaker sound loud that you need to protect your ears this is mostly caused by the amplifier starting distorting badly not because the amplifier is powerful. As your yamaha is only 60W this could be the case. A powerful amplifier will cause the speaker to be stressed as the speaker will start distorting at high power drives. You should be able to differentiate between mechanical distortion caused by overdriven speaker and distortion caused by a weak amplifier that runs out of current and voltage by clipping the signal. Is possible that the Marantz has got a oversensitive protection system that is sensitive to any distorsion and shuts down the amp. The Yamaha protection system if is working does not shut down the amp, but probably just limits the curent delivery to protect the amplifier. Unfortunatelly a nasty protection system like this will not protect speakers especially the tweeters. I do recommend since you have many amplifiers at hand to drive each pair of Dali's by different amplifier. This should give you far better result then driving two pairs with one amp. But then is possible the Maratz amp you tested is not oversensitive but is just faulty. Ideally you should try another one before you can condemn the amp to be oversensitive or your Dali's to be a difficult load. The Dali's I understand although they are 4 ohms rated they are easy load, so if they are proving difficult I would check them. A easy way to check them is with a voltmeter. The DC resistance should be around 3-4 ohms. Any less and you should be suspitious. As you have 4 speakers, they should all measure the same, any one measuring different again you should suspitious.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

dumbledore wrote:

If an amplifier makes a speaker sound loud that you need to protect your ears this is mostly caused by the amplifier starting distorting badly not because the amplifier is powerful. As your yamaha is only 60W this could be the case. A powerful amplifier will cause the speaker to be stressed as the speaker will start distorting at high power drives. You should be able to differentiate between mechanical distortion caused by overdriven speaker and distortion caused by a weak amplifier that runs out of current and voltage by clipping the signal. Is possible that the Marantz has got a oversensitive protection system that is sensitive to any distorsion and shuts down the amp. The Yamaha protection system if is working does not shut down the amp, but probably just limits the curent delivery to protect the amplifier. Unfortunatelly a nasty protection system like this will not protect speakers especially the tweeters. I do recommend since you have many amplifiers at hand to drive each pair of Dali's by different amplifier. This should give you far better result then driving two pairs with one amp. But then is possible the Maratz amp you tested is not oversensitive but is just faulty. Ideally you should try another one before you can condemn the amp to be oversensitive or your Dali's to be a difficult load. The Dali's I understand although they are 4 ohms rated they are easy load, so if they are proving difficult I would check them. A easy way to check them is with a voltmeter. The DC resistance should be around 3-4 ohms. Any less and you should be suspitious. As you have 4 speakers, they should all measure the same, any one measuring different again you should suspitious.

 

Great info, thanks very much for your advice.

 

Just checked the rear pair of Dalis and they measure L= 3.5 ohms   R=3.5 ohms. Front set L=3.5 ohms R=3.5 ohms, all exactly the same.

The rear set have not had as much use, so they sound brighter then the front set, fronts have mellowed through extended use.

We are going to upgrade the speaker wire to a larger gauge, they are just running on normal speaker wire, it is new and each length of cable is exactly the same length.

Regards the volume of the Yamaha amp, I understand what you are saying, but I have got damaged ears through too much loud music and clubbing etc. Hubby doesn't find any issues with his ears and the yamaha, it is only me and I've only got it with that amp. He says it is the best sounding amp we have in the house.

We currently have a Yamaha, Sansui high output one, Denon PMA 700 and something, Pioneer A400. I've probably missed a couple, cannot keep up with his hifi stash................

 

I'll start a new thread about running two amps together.

 

Thanks for your help everyone Smile

 

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

 

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

 

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

BigH wrote:

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

 

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

 

 

Thanks, I know what you are saying about loud music, I just like loud music sometimes, well most of the time actually lol.  Wiring the speakers in series is a possibility but we thought we would loose clarity.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

Not sure about clarity, hoping some experts would be able to advise on that, as I say it was a long time ago (over 30 years) and seemed to work then.

 

" It sounds excellent with George Michael Ladies and Gentlemen, but rubbish with many other CD's."

 

As for comment about cd player I would say yes definately it can make a big difference, as I have plenty of late 50s jazz cds it was one thing I was careful about when buying my last cd player, I got the Marantz 63SE which was excellent, not too revealing but natural sounding, along with a fairly sweet sounding amp. Arcam Alpha 3 sonded great to my ears. I tried various others like the Arcam cd but it did not sound right which was surprising given great reviews etc. Best to have an audition, but music like Dire Straits and Eagles should be OK? I always take some less than perfect recordings along, like Little Feat, it is amazing how some items are tripped up, I remember playing Van Morrison with some Wharfedale speakers and it sounded excellent but put on Little Feat with opening bass guitar and they were reduced to jelly and that was at low volumn, guy in shop said he had never heard that before, so got some Missions in the end.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

lovemusic wrote:

BigH wrote:

I find with reasonable hifi you don't need to have it so loud.

 

One thing about 2 pairs of speakers there are 2 ways of wiring them, years ago I had 4 speakers and I wired them in series, ie 1 lead from amp to 1st speaker and then onto the 2nd speaker and same on the other channel, is that not a possibility, I understood that was the same resistance as one set of speakers?

 

Hi Lovemusic you should change your name to Love Loud Music Wink ;)

 

Thanks, I know what you are saying about loud music, I just like loud music sometimes, well most of the time actually lol.  Wiring the speakers in series is a possibility but we thought we would loose clarity.

Musical Fidelity M6500i Musical FidelityM6 CDP ATC SCM 40s Cord Chameleon plus XLRs Tellurium Q Black speaker cables

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

There seems to be some confusion here.  Laughing

If you wire things (speakers etc) in series you are effectively adding their impedances together.  So it you wire two 6 ohm speakers in series you effectively get one 12 ohm load for your amplifier.  (With the huge caveat that loudspeakers aren't just resistive loads and you will get all types of phase effect by doing this and it isn't to be recommended at all.)

If you wire things in parallel (which is what I think the OP suggests was being done), ie two speakers both wired to the same amplifier output, you will reduce the impedance of the load.  It's a more complicated equation but if they are identical and there are two of them you will halve the load, so two 6 ohm speakers will produce a 3 ohm load.  If this load is less then the minumum that your amplifier is specified for it will potentially try to pull more current out of the amplifier than it is designed to do and it will fail in some way and potentially you could burn out the output stages of the amplifier.  DON'T DO THIS!!!

There is nothing wrong with the Marantz as you describe what has been happening.  You have just given it the wrong load.  It's nothing to do with power at all! 

If you really want to have 4 speakers (I've no idea why you want to use 4 speakers when presumably you are listening to stereo recordings which are designed for 2 speakers) then you will need an amplifier that is specified to drive a 3 ohm load.  Power is another matter and you need as much as you need to get to the listening level you want.  I've got the Marantz and can't imagine needing more power than it generates and I've never turned it up above 11 o'clock.  However I know that people do listen to music at levels that I would find unbearable.  Surprised

Chris

PS This link explains serial and parallel wiring:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

What sort of speakers do you have? I know they are Dalis but are they same size? Small speakers, floorstanders? Dalis make a range of speakers for bookselves upwards, having read a review of their bookself ones I will add it to my list of demos ones to hear. 

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

Connecting the speakers in series, thinking about, it may be worth a try. Obviously the amplifier will not be stressed and it will only distort at high volumes when it runs out of voltage. Now as the speakers are supposed to be the same connectig them in series will make no difference if they exactly the same. But then they cannot be exactly the same. This is not necessary undesirable. I think the effect will be that the speakers will sound like they are driven by an amplifier with less damping (i.e. like a valve amplifier). If you are still worried, you could even add to each speker a 8ohm resistance (10W) in parallel when you connect them in series. In this way you still keep the overall impedance above 4 ohms which will still be easy to drive. Ofcourse in this setup the sound levels achieved by a 60W amplifier will be modest but at least you know if the sound is acceptable to you.

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RE: Marantz PM6004 problem running my speakers

Thanks everyone:)

 

Yep, I should change my user name to loveLOUDmusic lol.

 

Right in the last hour things have changed.................tut tut. Hubby decided to sneak out while I was cleaning and came back with a Yamaha AS500!!!  Following it tomorrow is a Marantz CD6004!!!   Will it work, Goodness only knows, he's currently pulling all the furniture out to measure up for some more beefy speaker wire  :roll:

 

In answer to a couple of the above posts,

 

The speakers are floorstanders BIG floorstanders Dali 505. There's two matched pairs rated at 4ohms each. Having checked them they are actually 3.5ohms each, all the same.

He likes four speakers because it gives a greater effect to sound surrounding you in our room (It does sound good with two though) He wants 4!!  Men lol.

If this doesn't work he will have to just use one set and like it lol..........................

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