Lossless audio?

the_lhc:

maxflinn:

Andrew Everard:

maxflinn:

so then .. lossless audio is compressed , to make it easier to fit it onto cds , so it takes up less space on a pc , usb stick etc , but it then can be uncompressed and played back with all the data there ??

You really haven't read this thread have you? No, the original audio recording can be compressed in two basic ways, in order to fit more of more of it onto a storage medium:

- You can use lossy compression, such as MP3, which throws away some of the data to reduce the file size. Think turning a word document into a plain text .txt file, losing all the niceties of formatting, font type/colour,hyperlinks and so on, in order to create a smaller file.
- Or you can use lossless compression, which retains all the data, but creates a file that's larger than an MP3, but smaller than the original audio. To use the word analogy, it's like using WinZip or Stuffit or whatever to create an archive.

Frankly if you're thinking of using FLACs or ALACs or Apple Lossless, I personally don't see any reason not to just store WAV files, given how affordable storage is these days.

ta andrew , its a little clearer now i think ..

its confusing though , i thought that "lossless" just described a way of copying/storing files that was an exact copy of the original , and there was no compression involved when transferring/storing .

It can be, if it's uncompressed, however Lossless can be compressed and still be Lossless.

i didnt realise that music stored on a cd may be compressed , but still lossless  , a cd that you may buy in hmv etc , i thought they were uncompressed

Max, that isn't what Andrew said at all.

no , not saying he did .. just trying to figure out , if one goes into a shop and buys a few cds , can the data stored on them be  either compressed or uncompressed ?? we,ll say for example to enable getting more songs on an album ?? i thought up until this thread that the data was uncompressed ?

No, all music on a shop bought CD is PCM/WAV (ie uncompressed). Otherwise it wouldn't play on CD players.

SteveR750:

daveh75:

SteveR750:

Slightly OT, but what are the bit rates available with Spotify, standard premium etc?

Spotify 'Free' is 160 kbps and Premium is 320kbps. Not sure what bit rates the Open and Unlimited versions use.

So somewhat lower than the 1411 kbs from CD audio then. I have bought mp3 files at 328kbs which sounded ok. Does spotify use a better compression (i.e. less lossy) than mp3? In other words does it sound better than an equivalent high bit rate mp3 file?

I agree with other posters here that Ogg Vorbis as used by Spotify produces better sound than other lossy formats. Not enough attention goes on the codec used and too much time is spent on the actual bit rate. For example my Apple Lossless files go from 450kbps for Mozart to 1150kbps for Blondie, but each file is lossless and the same codec.

Tarquinh:

maxflinn:

if you want the best music playback , a ps3 isnt going to give it to you , ok fair enough if you dont want to go down the stereo amp , dedicated cd player road , you want the best a ps3 can give you ..

but it only gets so good , if really good sound from cds , usb , dacs or anything else is what your after , i think you will need a stereo setup , which by the way , would be quite cheap 2nd hand , once youve got your rx6s...

USB, or universal serial bus, is about communication and has nothing to do with sound per se.

true , i was thinking that canada may use a usb to transport music to his ps3 from pc , as i used to do ..

maxflinn:

if one goes into a shop and buys a few cds , can the data stored on them be  either compressed or uncompressed ?? we,ll say for example to enable getting more songs on an album ?? i thought up until this thread that the data was uncompressed ?

Yes, it is uncompressed, though I have now lost count of how many times I've explained this to you.

Data on a commercially-produced CD is all at 16-bit 44.1kHz, and the maximum running time of a standard Red Book CD is around 74mins. Any disc using any form of compression is not a CD, as it falls outside the standard, and will not play on a conventional CD player. For that reason such discs are not commercially available.

JohnDuncan:

No, all music on a shop bought CD is PCM/WAV (ie uncompressed). Otherwise it wouldn't play on CD players.

thats what i originally figured , so is it not then correct to say , that "lossless audio" is really a means of storage of data ?? i mean , the audio is the audio , its what you get to hear , lossless describes the format its stored in ?? no ??

There are basically two means of storing music. Lossless, where all the data is kept, but that data is stored in different ways which means the files can be different sizes or lossy where some of the data is removed.

maxflinn:

JohnDuncan:

No, all music on a shop bought CD is PCM/WAV (ie uncompressed). Otherwise it wouldn't play on CD players.

thats what i originally figured , so is it not then correct to say , that "lossless audio" is really a means of storage of data ?? i mean , the audio is the audio , its what you get to hear , lossless describes the format its stored in ?? no ??

I fail to understand the point you're trying to make Max. Lossless audio is a means of storing digital audio without removing (or, say, losing) any of that audio data. And it can be either uncompressed ie the same size as the original track found on an audio cd or it can be compressed so that it is smaller than the original BUT converts back to exactly the same data that came off the cd.

Now, what exactly is it that you don't get about that?

Apologies if that sounds narky but I'm beginning to suspect there's more than one person taking the mick on this thread at the moment.

the_lhc:

maxflinn:

JohnDuncan:

No, all music on a shop bought CD is PCM/WAV (ie uncompressed). Otherwise it wouldn't play on CD players.

thats what i originally figured , so is it not then correct to say , that "lossless audio" is really a means of storage of data ?? i mean , the audio is the audio , its what you get to hear , lossless describes the format its stored in ?? no ??

I fail to understand the point you're trying to make Max. Lossless audio is a means of storing digital audio without removing (or, say, losing) any of that audio data. And it can be either uncompressed ie the same size as the original track found on an audio cd or it can be compressed so that it is smaller than the original BUT converts back to exactly the same data that came off the cd.

Now, what exactly is it that you don't get about that?

Apologies if that sounds narky but I'm beginning to suspect there's more than one person taking the mick on this thread at the moment.

well i was kinda responding to canada who earlier asked ...

Yes what I am really asking is:

1. is lossless audio the best
sound quality, apart from blu-ray music, which there does not seem to be
much about.

2. were can you get lossless audio as like you said
it tends to be the best format for quality.

..

i think he may have thought that "lossless audio" was similar to sacd or something , in that it sounded better than cds etc and should be sought out ..

 

anyhows i do understand now , cheers ..

btw , not narky at all .. 

 

And my question after 4 pages of thread still has not been answered.

If I was a HiFi geek and had tens of thousands of pounds worth of kit, what type of audio, ie music would I play? 

Would it be sacd, or would most people just get normal music from itunes ect.. 

Or is CD the best type of music for now? Not to offend the Vinyl lovers out there.

I just wanted to know what is the best format or best way of playing music so it sounds it best, without buying hi-fi kit 

Been looking some more.

Do I just download the FLAC codec, and will that allow me to rip my current library to lossless or do I need something else.

Thanks 

This is my preference.

Vinyl/CD/ALAC.

I dont have SACD as the music i listen to isn't or very rarely released in this format. If it was then it would fall in between vinyl and CD.

I dont use online streams so cant comment on those.

just tested out my own question and downloaded a Linn track 24 bit WMA studio master file. By the time i-tunes had added it into its library the track info had moved to 16 bit and matched my cd lossless track info

so on that basis there is little point downloading anything higher than cd quality if you are using pc software such as itunes

that said cd lossless quality is still great - pity you cant download most general music at that quality - it seems cd purchases are still the best

crusaderlord:

just tested out my own question and downloaded a Linn track 24 bit WMA studio master file. By the time i-tunes had added it into its library the track info had moved to 16 bit and matched my cd lossless track info

so on that basis there is little point downloading anything higher than cd quality if you are using pc software such as itunes

that said cd lossless quality is still great - pity you cant download most general music at that quality - it seems cd purchases are still the best

The idea is to get the lossless file or the higher quality download to your DAC without it being altered. I use the Popcorn Hour A-200 and it does the job perfectly. Someone asked about the use of a DAC; well you have one in every cd player. Your amp sends an analogue sound to your speakers and CDs and lossless files are digital. Therefore you need to convert the digital to analogue (DAC).

crusaderlord:

just tested out my own question and downloaded a Linn track 24 bit WMA studio master file. By the time i-tunes had added it into its library the track info had moved to 16 bit and matched my cd lossless track info

so on that basis there is little point downloading anything higher than cd quality if you are using pc software such as itunes

that said cd lossless quality is still great - pity you cant download most general music at that quality - it seems cd purchases are still the best

The idea is to get the lossless file or the higher quality download to your DAC without it being altered. I use the Popcorn Hour A-200 and it does the job perfectly. Someone asked about the use of a DAC; well you have one in every cd player. Your amp sends an analogue sound to your speakers and CDs and lossless files are digital. Therefore you need to convert the digital to analogue (DAC).