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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

I don't disagree with that.  Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you.  So we will have to agree to disagree again.  Cheers!

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

ifor wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

I don't disagree with that.  Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you.  So we will have to agree to disagree again.  Cheers!

 

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

P00dl3 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching describes the theory, sure it may not be operating in its sweet spot but all you will be losing/wasting is a little power.

In the spirit of correcting nonsense on the Internet, the recommended impedance of speakers has nothing to do with optimal energy transfer and 'matching' the output impedance of the amp.  The output impedance of an amp is usually a few tenths of an ohm.

Recommended impedance is a function of the current driving capability of the amplifier.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

I don't disagree with that.  Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you.  So we will have to agree to disagree again.  Cheers!

 

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

 

That was 'black'.

 

This is 'white'. 

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... Wink

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

I don't disagree with that.  Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you.  So we will have to agree to disagree again.  Cheers!

 

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

 

That was 'black'.

 

This is 'white'. 

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... Wink

Sorry, you are incorrect. A good loudspeaker on a budget amp will only be constrained volume wise by the amount of power the amplifier can produce. Operated within its power capabilities it wil sound very similar quality wise to any other amplifier, because all modern amplifiers (except valve) have a flat response at minimal distortion throughout the audio band. This is not true of loudspeakers, even expensive ones. If an amp has a very low damping factor it might produce slight resonance peaks in line with the speaker resonances, but that's about it. Valve amplifier users seem to like that!

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

TrevC wrote:

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

TrevC wrote:

ifor wrote:

I don't disagree with that.  Just leave the speakers to the end. He'll end up with much better speakers than if starting with a budget speaker.

Or buy some decent speakers first, which is the correct advice.

Trev, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything you've ever written on the forum, mainly because it's so black and white for you.  So we will have to agree to disagree again.  Cheers!

 

I don't like misinformation on the internet, so like to correct it when possible. When you consider that the finest speakers in the world have massive amounts of distortion and poor frequency response when compared with even the cheapest budget amplifier you will realise I'm correct.

 

That was 'black'.

 

This is 'white'. 

Speakers are essentially passive devices and can not improve on the signal fed to them. The better the speaker the more reveiling it is and in the case of a mediocre signal the better speaker will simply reveal more of this mediocrity than the less good speaker. Sometimes this is so obvious that the 'better' speaker actually sounds worse.

If you take a minute or two to think about what actually happens in a hi-fi system, you will realise I am correct....... Wink

Sorry, you are incorrect. A good loudspeaker on a budget amp will only be constrained volume wise by the amount of power the amplifier can produce. Within its capabilities it wil sound very similar quality wise to any other amplifier, because all amplifiers have a flat response at minimal distortion throughout the audio band. If it has a very low damping factor it might produce slight resonance peaks in line with the speaker resonances, but that's about it. Valve amplifier users seem to like that!

I appreciate your logic but I find the opening premise to be flawed. Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

It also rather depends on what you consider 'sufficiant' power, it is my strong belief that most modern systems are underpowered and that a lot of the time the amplifier is not working 'within it's capabilities', I hear this all the time when listening to other peoples systems, it is also very apparent in many shops.

Furthermore you seem to discount the source too, bear in mind that, in this instance, it is a record player and a very modest one at that. A feel that even a simple Rega or ProJect player would make a huge improvement.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

Thanks guys for all the advice - I agree new speakers would probably make the most difference, but I will eventually change the whole set up. Right now I do actually need to buy an amp as I need to use my current one for another use. So i will look to get an amp right now second hand.

I don't know if my speakers Eltax Concept 400s are dull or bright, so I'm unsure about the Pioneer. The Marantz PM6010 OSE looks like a good bet. I assume it's better than the Technics SU-V460?

 

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

estidog wrote:

Thanks guys for all the advice - I agree new speakers would probably make the most difference, but I will eventually change the whole set up. Right now I do actually need to buy an amp as I need to use my current one for another use. So i will look to get an amp right now second hand.

I don't know if my speakers Eltax Concept 400s are dull or bright, so I'm unsure about the Pioneer. The Marantz PM6010 OSE looks like a good bet. I assume it's better than the Technics SU-V460?

 

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have? 

 

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

davedotco wrote:

 Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

What other qualitative factors are you talking about? I'm talking about budget hifi amps, not junk.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

TrevC wrote:

estidog wrote:

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have? 

Technics P-30 that has probably been on there its whole life. Do cartridges wear out?

 

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

Speakers are the part of a system that interfaces with the room & if all things are equal (which they rarely are) is where much of the budget for a complete new system should be spent. If you start off thinking of upgrading even before you spent a cent, the equation changes. The ideal solution is to have a degree of balance - no sensible soul would put £300 speakers on a system worth thousands although I've seen this at Hi Fi shows & an entirely dishonest way of selling budget speakers it is too!

Any system is only as slightly better than its weakest link which can be any component in the chain but is rarely the cabling - so don't get talked into spending loads on what changes the sound the least. Also before spending a dime, checking stuff like speaker or listening position; removing, checking then refitting cables can make a huge difference for no more outlay than your time. Unless someone has experience listening to your system as setup in your room, it's not easy to recommend what to change unless one item is known to be a lemon.

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

estidog wrote:

TrevC wrote:

estidog wrote:

One other question I have for you all - and this is porbbaly impossible to tell / give advcie on without hearing my system playing - but vinyls on the TT do sound a little scratchy and slightly distorted in loud parts of songs when playing the TT. I've never really noticed this before I started analysing the set up and cross referencing it with the same song playing through my ipod into the amp and same set up. The needle is new BTW, the interconnects are pretty decent and all in good shape, so would this be a case of poor phono stage in the amp, or poor turntable?

The vinyl is in excellent condition also.

What cartridge do you have? 

Technics P-30 that has probably been on there its whole life. Do cartridges wear out?

 

Any wear will be in the stylus, so perhaps the replacement you have isn't up to scratch, so to speak. Is it a genuine Technics?

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

If changing speaker cable made such a noticable difference then maybe there was a polarity change which gave the effect and the difference was not so much from the cable. Sorry if someone else already suggested this.

It is tempting to get a better amp, source or speakers, but, whichever you change, it is my experience, and that of many people on this forum, that you will then find something else wanting, and feel the need to change that too, and then the next thing etc. You will then have upgraditis, like many of us. It is a slippery and potentially expensive slope and I am only just about clinging on, until the fever strikes again.

I do not know much about the SL-DD33 turntable, but if it has adjustment possibilities I would recommend checking the tracking weight and anti skate first and moving on from there.

 

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

TrevC wrote:

davedotco wrote:

 Budget amplifiers in real world systems are not the same as 'better' amplifiers but with limited power. There are other qualitative factors involved that in my view make a big difference.

What other qualitative factors are you talking about? I'm talking about budget hifi amps, not junk.

I know what you are getting at here but I think the issue revolves around our definitions of "budget hifi amps" and "junk".

As I said above, I feel the most budget amplifiers are chronically underpowered, an issue not helped by their optimistic power ratings. To my mind they are simply inadequate in (my) hi-fi terms. Not junk, as they can produce a pleasing sound, though to my mind (and ears) not really something that I would consider hi-fi. (I know, we have been here before, but suffice it to say that I personally set the bar a bit higher than some when deciding what is and what is not hi-fi).

I would consider the Creek 50a to be my entry level "hi-fi" amplifier, I have not heard the Brio-R but I found the early Brio models to be very modest performers. On the other hand I find that the Roksan Kandy, whilst powerful enough offers little real insight into the music, much too 'forthright'  and lacking in subtlety for my taste.

These are fairly extreme examples of my views which are clearly not in the mainstream and I am very aware of that. Similarly I am also very aware just how similar competent amplifiers can sound in a blind test, something that strongly supports your views. Equally, and not at all consistently, I find some amplifiers communicate far better than others, particularly when thy are in regular use.

From a scientific point of view I find that inconvenient and, to a degree perplexing. I do not understand what is happening but over very many years I have discovered that this is how things are for me, you and everyone else may well here things differently.

 

Back on topic, I remain convinced that the modern emphasis towards the speakers is simply wrong. I am well aware of the big differences one can hear between speakers but if we leave the 'junk' out of the discussion, I find most of the differences to be in the way that music is presented, rather than any real difference in the capabilities of the speaker.

Edit for spelling.

 

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RE: incorrectly matched Ohms?

Some heat generated her?

I suggest considering yr total budget likey in the next few years and keep yr tt or upgrade it and cartridge/stylus to suit the budget. IMO, using a badly set up deck can do nothing but compromise any future investment. After that? You may get a better deal by buying amp & speakers together but otherwise probably speakers first.I recon amps are important but not as critical maybe. Money spent on cables at anything but med/high end kit will be wasted. Positioning, room acoustics & a decent tt platform are important and not necessarily expensive. Thats my two penneth. Good luck deceiphering all this advice.

Yamaha V2065. MS Mezzo 5.1 Panasonic 42. Sony BD. Garrard 86SB. WD Live TV. SkyHD.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/lounge-hc-signature-update-bass-traps

 

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