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davedotco's picture
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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

12Designs wrote:

Surely if you have excellent source and amplifier and sensitive speakers then cabling is extremely important. Cables might not make the sound of electronics any better but sub standard cables (relatively speaking) will strangle the sound.

Even on budget electronics differences can be heard.

Expectation bias may factor in but it seems an all too conveniently logical argument to make on behalf of doubt.

Cable testing is an odd one. In most properly conducted blind tests most people can not reliably tell the difference between a budget cable and a hi-end cable at substantially higher cost, even one generally aclaimed to be excellent.

Level matching the two samples is critical and difficult enough in practice to make such tests quite difficult to organise, however should you ever get a chance to participate in a blind test it is definitely wort doing.

 

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

Blind tests last only a short amount of time though. Quite often subtle differences are only experienced over a longer time period. Sound fatigue is one such element that could only be experienced and judged over extended listening periods.

Blind tests do sound interesting though, I would like to participate in one at some point.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

12Designs wrote:

Blind tests last only a short amount of time though. Quite often subtle differences are only experienced over a longer time period. Sound fatigue is one such element that could only be experienced and judged over extended listening periods.

Blind tests do sound interesting though, I would like to participate in one at some point.

You would think so but it is not born out by the evidence which shows that long term tests are less likely to be effective than short term tests.

A famous test was carried out by Dave Clarke and Laurance Greenhill. The produced a number of sealed boxes that connected between pre and power amp. Each box contained a circuit that added significant distotion to the signal, sufficiant to be easily detected in an A - B test. half the boxes had the circuit connected, half did not.

Enthusiasts were required to power down their system and connect the box, then power up again with the box connected. The box stayed in place until the subject felt he had a handle on whether the box made a difference or not, no time limit was set and some took several weeks to come to a decision.

Statistically there was no evidence that the subjects could tell whether they had a distortion box or a straight through box.

 

On the other hand, I can clearly remenber a time when I had a very enjoyable entry level system. Having a bit of money to spend I bought a new amplifier, about 3 times the cost of my existing one. The new amp was clearly better, in all respects, I could here that clearly and I showed it off to all my friends.

After a couple of months I simply found that I was not listening to my music anywhere near as much as before, and when I did I was listening to just a few tracks, rather than playing music all night as had been the case before.

I could not get my old amp back so I ended up changing the whole system, at considerable cost before the enjoyment returned.

Make of that what you will.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

I recently tried biwiring my ProAc k6 speakers and was shocked at how much more muddy and coloured they sounded.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

Yes even WHF often say biwiring sounds worse on speakers reviews.

 

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

BigH wrote:

Yes even WHF often say biwiring sounds worse on speakers reviews.

 

So it most probably does work then........ Wink

Back in the day, before the concept of split crossovers and biwireing, the Americans (has to be, doesn't it) were rather fond of a technique they call 'shotgunning'.

This simply consisted of using 2, usually identical speaker cables, per speaker, simply 'paralleling up' in other words. Great things were said about this technique and some cable manufacturers even produced 4 core cables specifically for shotgunning. 

Think about it for a while....... :doh:

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

davedotco wrote:

You would think so but it is not born out by the evidence which shows that long term tests are less likely to be effective than short term tests. 

On the other hand, I can clearly remenber a time when I had a very enjoyable entry level system. Having a bit of money to spend I bought a new amplifier, about 3 times the cost of my existing one. The new amp was clearly better, in all respects, I could here that clearly and I showed it off to all my friends.

After a couple of months I simply found that I was not listening to my music anywhere near as much as before, and when I did I was listening to just a few tracks, rather than playing music all night as had been the case before.

I could not get my old amp back so I ended up changing the whole system, at considerable cost before the enjoyment returned.

Make of that what you will.

After 'a couple of months you found you were not listening to your mucis as much'... so you've just contradicted yourself with regards to long term tests not being effective.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

Covenanter wrote:

But the industry as a whole doesn't promote blind testing and you have to ask why not?  The answer must be that there is nothing in it for them as a whole.  If you could hypothetically for example test all amplifiers at the same price point against each other in a way that would be accepted as a definitive test the only one to win out would the one that came top.   That's not a game I would play especially if the product I was making was snake-oil!

Chris

PS If it's not a joke I don't understnad the relevance of your point about listening in the dark.  Surely you weren't equating it to blind testing?

Chris, maybe some makers don't see blind testing as the be-all and end-all of hifi? Linn strongly espouse their 'tune-dem' method of evaluation, which like blind or ABX testing has merit.

And therein lies the rub - blind testing is only one methodology of many of evaluating hifi equipment. It may not necessarily be the best one, or could be used in conjunction with others. Much like IT if you ask me.

To my mind listening to music in the dark is more-or-less the equivalent of blind-testing, because you're not being distracted by sight, or the location of your hifi or speakers. And you're not looking at your hifi. You're naturally pushed to listen to the music.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

manicm wrote:

To my mind listening to music in the dark is more-or-less the equivalent of blind-testing, because you're not being distracted by sight, or the location of your hifi or speakers. And you're not looking at your hifi. You're naturally pushed to listen to the music.

Are you being disingeuous here?

You still know what equipment you're listening to, even in the dark ffs!

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

pauln wrote:

manicm wrote:

To my mind listening to music in the dark is more-or-less the equivalent of blind-testing, because you're not being distracted by sight, or the location of your hifi or speakers. And you're not looking at your hifi. You're naturally pushed to listen to the music.

Are you being disingeuous here?

You still know what equipment you're listening to, even in the dark ffs!

What I meant is you could do this in demo rooms where you don't know what the equipment is. What I also meant is you are just as likely to notice both flaws and strengths even in a known system you thought you were familiar with.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

manicm wrote:

davedotco wrote:

You would think so but it is not born out by the evidence which shows that long term tests are less likely to be effective than short term tests. 

On the other hand, I can clearly remenber a time when I had a very enjoyable entry level system. Having a bit of money to spend I bought a new amplifier, about 3 times the cost of my existing one. The new amp was clearly better, in all respects, I could here that clearly and I showed it off to all my friends.

After a couple of months I simply found that I was not listening to my music anywhere near as much as before, and when I did I was listening to just a few tracks, rather than playing music all night as had been the case before.

I could not get my old amp back so I ended up changing the whole system, at considerable cost before the enjoyment returned.

Make of that what you will.

After 'a couple of months you found you were not listening to your mucis as much'... so you've just contradicted yourself with regards to long term tests not being effective.

No sh*t Sherlock...... That was kind of the point......... ROFL

I have said often enough that I do not wish to be pedantic, many things in hifi are not black and white, so I was giving an example, from my own experience, where my personal observations, however unconciously formed, were at odds with the established (objective) point of view.

Really just pointing out that neither I, nor the rest of the hifi community, can be sure of what is going on all the time.

I'm with Donald Rumsfeld on this, not a thing I ever expected to say in public....... Wink

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

davedotco wrote:

No sh*t Sherlock...... That was kind of the point......... ROFL

I have said often enough that I do not wish to be pedantic, many things in hifi are not black and white, so I was giving an example, from my own experience, where my personal observations, however unconciously formed, were at odds with the established (objective) point of view.

Really just pointing out that neither I, nor the rest of the hifi community, can be sure of what is going on all the time.

I'm with Donald Rumsfeld on this, not a thing I ever expected to say in public....... Wink

I agree totally, sometimes in hifi, as in life, things are not quite in black and white.

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

manicm wrote:

davedotco wrote:

No sh*t Sherlock...... That was kind of the point......... ROFL

I have said often enough that I do not wish to be pedantic, many things in hifi are not black and white, so I was giving an example, from my own experience, where my personal observations, however unconciously formed, were at odds with the established (objective) point of view.

Really just pointing out that neither I, nor the rest of the hifi community, can be sure of what is going on all the time.

I'm with Donald Rumsfeld on this, not a thing I ever expected to say in public....... Wink

I agree totally, sometimes in hifi, as in life, things are not quite in black and white.

 

Except in the dark apparently....... :roll:

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

No not even in the dark :poke:

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RE: IET, Bi-wiring does not work and other myths

Shades of grey.

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