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RE: Going active ... ?

lindsayt wrote:

fr0g wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

I'm sorry, but that is simply "edited."

I am no friend to the company, the "sales pitch" is full of more edited for the most part, but the sound is very very good for the price. And considering they use high quality drivers and high quality amps, and are very well finished, then of course they are good value. I see ATC have some new standmounts at almost the same price...no amp, no DAC. How would you rate their value?? 

And comparing anything to something second hand marks you down as lacking in common sense...You "can" buy them second hand you know! 

So what standmount speakers, amp and DAC would you recommend against them, that would sound as good, for similar money?

 

And no, not everyone can afford to move house to put monstrous eyesores in the living room.

 

For you to ignore the 2nd market when it comes to talking about value for money displays a lack of logic or knowledge. Value for money is all about what you can get for what money. What you can get in terms of the manufacturing and material costs for what money. What you can get in terms of the utility for what money. What you can get in terms of fitness for purpose for the money. In hi-fi that means what you can get in terms of sound quality for the money. Unless of course your main purpose in buying hi-fi is in something that is nice to look at. My main purpose in buying hi-fi is in having something that is magical to listen to. If you see hi-fi as living room sculptures, as living room art, then there's no way that we will ever agree on value for money because appreciation of art is such a subjective area and why some people would pay millions for a Picasso, whilst I wouldn't pay anything for one, except as an investment opportunity to sell it on as soon as possible. Whereas a Canaletto, I would pay good money to have in my house. But that's just my taste in art which may well be different to anyone else's.

 

Just because there are other hi-fi products that offer worse value for money than the AVI's, doesn't mean to say that the AVI's offer good value for money. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself when yhou say "And comparing anything to something second hand marks you down as lacking in common sense...You "can" buy them second hand you know! " If you can buy them 2nd hand for half the price of them new then that does make new versions bad value for money. The 2nd hand ones will look the same and sound the same. They will both have an equally good chance of lasting for the next 10 years. Surely it's lacking in common sense to spend more on something than you have to?

 

What sounds better for less money, and offers better value for money in terms of manufacturing costs for the money? Loads of combinations.

 

For DAC's a 2nd hand Beresford, or Behringer, or other brand DAC. Sound differences between DACs are minimal. So DAC choice is no big deal.

Amp: Sony ES 770 model, or some other battleship Japanese amp or one of the JBL 62xx amps.

Speakers: Yamaha NS1000 or NS1000M. These are not monstrous eyesores. They do have Berylium midrange units and tweeters and lightweight 12" bass drivers. Klipsch Cornwalls 2nd hand. These are not monstrous speakers and they will go right in the corner or up against the wall. Various Royd models. Epos ES14's. But thinking about it, why did you bring "monstrous eyesores" into this debate? What have looks and size got to do with value for money? Nothing. If something's much bigger and looks less good to you that doesn't make it worse value. It just makes it big and ugly in your eyes. We can move the debate onto looks and size if you want, but that's a completely different topic to value for money. So, other good value for money speakers include scruffy pairs of Altec Model 19's, EV Sentry III's, Quad ESL's and mint condition Bozak Symphonys - all of which for a few hundred quid offer better sound quality than the AVI's and better value for money in terms of the manufacturing and material costs.

 

I just get tired of posters on this forum pretending that AVI speakers are something that they are not. At £1300 they are not good value for money.

 

There is a distinct lack of logic here. Your original point was that they were poor value from new compared to what you can buy secondhand. So? That's the case for most things. It's irrelevant as you need to compare them at their second hand price to rate VFM. 

Not everyone wants used things...Me included. I have never bought anything other than a house and a car second hand. I prefer new, warranty and all.

So, at the price from new, compared to what you can buy from new, they are exceptional value for money.

What other stand mount system would compare, and how much would it cost, from new. Or if you prefer, what could I get second hand that would better my ADM9T, for a cost of around £600 which is roughly what I'd expect if I sold them? I'd need speakers, a nice powerful amp and a DAC.

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RE: Going active ... ?

fr0g wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

 

I just get tired of posters on this forum pretending that AVI speakers are something that they are not. At £1300 they are not good value for money.

 

There is a distinct lack of logic here. Your original point was that they were poor value from new compared to what you can buy secondhand. So? That's the case for most things. It's irrelevant as you need to compare them at their second hand price to rate VFM. 

Not everyone wants used things...Me included. I have never bought anything other than a house and a car second hand. I prefer new, warranty and all.

So, at the price from new, compared to what you can buy from new, they are exceptional value for money.

What other stand mount system would compare, and how much would it cost, from new. Or if you prefer, what could I get second hand that would better my ADM9T, for a cost of around £600 which is roughly what I'd expect if I sold them? I'd need speakers, a nice powerful amp and a DAC.

...and a new front room to accomodate the 'new' speakers.

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RE: Going active ... ?

I will say again, I htink they're very good value for money.  I seem to recall Simon Lucas saying when he did the group test that they compared well to a 'well sorted £2k amp and speaker combination'.  So in that context, they're spectacular value.  

However, the manufacturer's insistence that they wipe the floor with any passive speaker is where I am deeply sceptical - indeed, I thought the PMC DB1 'active' was better, albeit at £1k more.  But then, they also insist that Apple earbuds wipe the floor with any passive speaker, so what do you expect?

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RE: Going active ... ?

John Duncan wrote:

I will say again, I htink they're very good value for money.  I seem to recall Simon Lucas saying when he did the group test that they compared well to a 'well sorted £2k amp and speaker combination'.  So in that context, they're spectacular value.  

However, the manufacturer's insistence that they wipe the floor with any passive speaker is where I am deeply sceptical - indeed, I thought the PMC DB1 'active' was better, albeit at £1k more.  But then, they also insist that Apple earbuds wipe the floor with any passive speaker, so what do you expect?

Put any subjective comments through a EDITED filter and what's left should be the good stuff, ie relevant info. This applies to any manufacturer.

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RE: Going active ... ?

John Duncan wrote:

 

However, the manufacturer's insistence that they wipe the floor with any passive speaker is where I am deeply sceptical - indeed, I thought the PMC DB1 'active' was better, albeit at £1k more.  But then, they also insist that Apple earbuds wipe the floor with any passive speaker, so what do you expect?

Yes, I found the constant slagging off etc wearing too. However, it seems this particular approach to marketing serves AVI well. Not for me though and the reason why I left their admittedly otherwise very interesting (and surprisingly friendly) forum.

Still, if I get the AVI's I'm buying the speakers not the marketing blurb.

regards

regards

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RE: Going active ... ?

Ajani wrote:
That's not really a fair comparison. AV companies generally update models annually. HiFi brands general refresh once every four or five years. 

 

So AVI refreshing essentially once per annum is extreme for HiFi.

From what I've read on the AVI forum I don't think they have a planned annual upgrade path or anything like that. Martin Grinrod seems to be constantly at work doing new reasearch and development and every few months Ashley tells the people on their forum that they're testing some new drivers, amp plates, acoustic foam or even a whole new speaker design. Many of the things that Martin tests gets scrapped because they don't perform well enough but whenever they do find a way to improve things it seems to get implemented into the new speakers very quickly and a new ADM9 model is born.

 

Personally I find AVI's openness and and honesty to their R&D program and how the business is operated very refreshing. The most recent upgrade to the ADM9's was a new tweeter. I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) that it's a new design which has been tweaked by the manufacturer Sinar Baja in accordance to Martin Grinrod's own specifications.

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5 > AVI subwoofer

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable - Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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RE: Going active ... ?

drummerman wrote:

...Admittedly, the remote control could be a bit fancier and a volume display would be handy but other than that I can't see much fault...

If I ever manage to upgrade my Neutrons to ADM9's then the lack of a display and no remote controlled subwoofer volume would be a bit of an irritation. It wouldn't be a deal breaker because of the improved sound quality but it would be a bit of a pain in the EDITED.

 

 

drummerman wrote:

Yes, I found the constant slagging off etc wearing too. However, it seems this particular approach to marketing serves AVI well. Not for me though and the reason why I left their admittedly otherwise very interesting (and surprisingly friendly) forum...

Even if much of what Ash say's about other hifi companies may be true (I'm not saying it is BTW) but I do agree with you that it's bad buisness to slag of competitors. Still, it doesn't seem to do AVI any harm and personally I find his comments quite interesting and educational but I can see why it rubs some people up the wrong way.

 

Happy Sunday petal. Wink

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5 > AVI subwoofer

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable - Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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RE: Going active ... ?

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

 

Like what?

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RE: Going active ... ?

BigH wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

 

Like what?

Anything old...... :read:

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RE: Going active ... ?

davedotco wrote:

BigH wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

 

Like what?

Anything old...... :read:

 

That defeats his own statement then, only old gear. So a system is not good value because I can buy a load old stuff that better, how about new systems?

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RE: Going active ... ?

fr0g wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

I'm sorry, but that is simply "edited."

I am no friend to the company, the "sales pitch" is full of more edited for the most part, but the sound is very very good for the price. And considering they use high quality drivers and high quality amps, and are very well finished, then of course they are good value. I see ATC have some new standmounts at almost the same price...no amp, no DAC. How would you rate their value?? 

And comparing anything to something second hand marks you down as lacking in common sense...You "can" buy them second hand you know! 

So what standmount speakers, amp and DAC would you recommend against them, that would sound as good, for similar money?

 

And no, not everyone can afford to move house to put monstrous eyesores in the living room.

 

Well said Frog

 

 

 

 

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RE: Going active ... ?

jonathanRD wrote:

I've been looking at the AVI website today.

I think I've been lucky over the years that my local dealer always seemed to give good advice that meant my budget gear turned out rather good. 

I thought I needed floorstanders affer a new extension on the house gave me a 4m wide by 5m long room to play in. But after getting the BKXXLS400 sub woofer and hooking it up with my old Mission 780's, I starting to consider whether to look at £800 - £1000 stand mount speakers instead (supported by the BK sub).

There is nothing wrong with my current gear, so if I am going to spend some cash, I want to move up from budget gear. So to replace my 15+ years speakers and 14 year old amp (each about £350 back in the day) I think I should be spending circa £750 for an amp and slightly more for speakers. Thats potentially about £1500 to £2000.

But, there's lots of views, reviews etc on system matching and countless options, I could be demoeing for months.

Just wondering whether £1250  (for the new ADM9RS) represents another good option (I assume I can connect my BK amp).

I haven't got the cash together yet but I am certainly thinking about it. 

 

I have the Mission 780SE in my old system, I now have the AVI 9RSS the Scanspeak version not the current version, I can tell you they are in a different league from the Missions, I guess the drivers in the Missions cost around £40 and the AVI certainly cost much more and it shows, also active do have some advantages. Whether they are for you only you can tell, you can get them for a 30 day trial which is probably the best idea if you are serious about them or there are a few dealers around, I went BArletts in north London. ALso I had about 20 other demos of various amps/speakers costing between £1000-£2,000 and for me the AVIs were best, they are very dynamic and clear, the amps and speakers just work well together, all the others I heard there was something wrong, I'm not saying they are the best but certainly worth considering.

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RE: Going active ... ?

fr0g wrote:
 

There is a distinct lack of logic here. Your original point was that they were poor value from new compared to what you can buy secondhand. So? That's the case for most things. It's irrelevant as you need to compare them at their second hand price to rate VFM. 

Not everyone wants used things...Me included. I have never bought anything other than a house and a car second hand. I prefer new, warranty and all.

So, at the price from new, compared to what you can buy from new, they are exceptional value for money.

What other stand mount system would compare, and how much would it cost, from new. Or if you prefer, what could I get second hand that would better my ADM9T, for a cost of around £600 which is roughly what I'd expect if I sold them? I'd need speakers, a nice powerful amp and a DAC.

For £600?

 

Just one example out of many possible combinations:

Muse Audio DAC into Creek CAS4040 into EV Sentry III's.

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RE: Going active ... ?

davedotco wrote:

BigH wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

I don't think they're good value for money at £1300. The amps are cheap. The DAC's cheap. The crossovers are cheap. The cabinets are cheap. The drivers are cheap and you only get 2 small ones per channel. And they don't sound good compared to other DAC / amps / speaker combinations you can buy for less money. And they sound the same as the same speakers bought 2nd hand for £600.

 

Like what?

Anything old...... :read:

No not anything old. Not when it comes to the speakers, which are the most important item with digitial only as a source. Only certain cherry picked speakers. Properly engineered ones. There are plenty of old speakers that were just as cheaply made as the AVI ADM 9's - and this does tend to show in the sonic performance.

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RE: Going active ... ?

lindsayt wrote:

EV Sentry III's.

Pretty.

They are more like PA speakers than hifi speakers though.

 

The bass driver is big but looks low quality.

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5 > AVI subwoofer

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable - Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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