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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

Craig M. wrote:

Because the idea that i/c's change the sound is bull.  What changes is your perception due to influences other than the sound changing.  Find me just one blind test that shows up changes in i/c's, just one.  Even Peter Belt with his crazy ideas admits that what changes is the listeners perception, not the sound itself.  I'm continually amazed that people still believe this garbage.

Have you actually done a test? Cables can change sound massivly, thats one most people 'EQ' there kit.. Maybe you're right, i'll let you know tommorow.. Maybe I can record it on my phone and notice the difference.. If it is very obvious I can put two camparing video's on youtube and put the link on here? I'm not saying you're wrong I just don't know yet

My advice is to try for yourself, and go with what you hear...

 

This is exactly what I will do Cno.. You never know my measly iPhone Mic might even be able to pick up audible differences  :read:

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Big Colz, I recommend you read this.  It was compiled by whf member idc and is very good. http://idc1966.blogspot.co.uk/

Cno, I'd love to see you prove your opinion by taking a blind comparison test.  I know, I know, you don't have to tell me, you won't.

Just ask yourself Colz, if these differences are so obvious, why can't anybody hear them when they don't know what cable they are listening to.  Why do you HAVE to know which cable is being used to be able to hear the difference.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Craig M. wrote:

Big Colz, I recommend you read this.  It was compiled by whf member idc and is very good. http://idc1966.blogspot.co.uk/

Cno, I'd love to see you prove your opinion by taking a blind comparison test.  I know, I know, you don't have to tell me, you won't.

Just ask yourself Colz, if these differences are so obvious, why can't anybody hear them when they don't know what cable they are listening to.  Why do you HAVE to know which cable is being used to be able to hear the difference.

 

As Cno said i'm not getting into a debate if I 'think' there is a major difference I will video both and we can see if your speakers can hear the difference.. There will only be one variable.. The I/Cs.. 

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

I'm not asking for a debate, as far as I'm concerned there isn't one.  And you may well hear a difference, but it WON'T be because the cable has actually made one.  It will be down to your perception, your brain will in essence invent the difference for you.  As I said, just have a look at idc's blog, it is very fair and informative.  Fwiw, I too used to hear differences in cables until I got myself 'blind tested', which was followed by LOTS of research so I could understand what was going on.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Err guys, just trying to reinstate peace along What HiFi's Gaza strip, I think we can probably agree surely that no change of i/c is going to fundamentally change the O/P's sound when he's complaining that his speakers epically lack bass...

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

MajorFubar wrote:
Err guys, just trying to reinstate peace along What HiFi's Gaza strip, I think we can probably agree surely that no change of i/c is going to fundamentally change the O/P's sound when he's complaining that his speakers epically lack bass...

Which is why, way back in post 4, I made a check list....some of which can have a bigger effect than others. Also, a number of smaller factors, when all addressed and added together, can sometimes tip the balance.  Smile

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

MajorFubar wrote:
Err guys, just trying to reinstate peace along What HiFi's Gaza strip, I think we can probably agree surely that no change of i/c is going to fundamentally change the O/P's sound when he's complaining that his speakers epically lack bass...

:grin:   On the other hand though, if you were on a travel forum discussing holidays abroad and someone said they'd love to go but didn't want to die when the boat sailed off the end of the world, well, you'd try to put them right wouldn't you? :help: :grin:

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

I will go with an open mind.. If there is no difference then I will try different speakers.. The change I want too make is might be small or jurrastic I don't yet.. If so I may get a cheaper lively in the bass/midrange speaker like the DM 2/7 or something.. If I still can't balance the sound enough i'll try a sub.. If that doesn't work i'll sell it all and buy a midrange integrated and buy 500 CD's and a new TV Biggrin

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Craig M. wrote:

MajorFubar wrote:
Err guys, just trying to reinstate peace along What HiFi's Gaza strip, I think we can probably agree surely that no change of i/c is going to fundamentally change the O/P's sound when he's complaining that his speakers epically lack bass...

:grin:   On the other hand though, if you were on a travel forum discussing holidays abroad and someone said they'd love to go but didn't want to die when the boat sailed off the end of the world, well, you'd try to put them right wouldn't you? :help: :grin:

.....or a comedy forum, where humour was at a premium! :shifty: Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:

Last thing I would consider to tune the system is jumpers. Cause I studied physics at university. Sorry but thats naive to believe that 2cm of copper can have any audible influence on the sound.

 

Today I carried out another experiment. I brought my speakers to my old friend's house and connected to his stereo system. I used his vintage 100wpc Sony amp and his cables and his stands and all. Well, something changed, mostly because of the different room acoustics, but so familiar speakers' signature remained. I could still hear those flying highs with pretty beautiful Proac's stereo image and no slam in the low end. Whenever I expected a drum bass kick there was literally just a relaxed clap in the background. If you say that speakers of their size are not supposed to meet my requests, I would kindly recommend you to listen to Genelecs or Adams with 6.5" woofer. Well, maybe they are all hyped in the low end, but thats what sound engineers listen to when making our favourite recordings.

 

I think I will stop on that and save some money for another pair of active studio monitors. Maybe Focal or Genelec.

Trust your ears dimedrol. You just cannot go wrong with the Genelec range of active speakers. From what I see you have heard them before. Wise choice Wink

 OPPO 105EU, Arcam AVR450, Boston Acoustics M340. Dac: Musical fedility V90.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

So I went for the demo today.. For those interested.. I tried chord cobra and chord chorus reference and took my cables. I tried my speakers, Dyn x12, x36 and DM 2/7.. I kept my Cyrus I/C between my pre-power and listened with my Cambridge audio cable (silver) streamer to pre.. Sounds pretty good I think the hump in eq I heard before is down to room accoustics.. I changed the streamer cable to the cobra hoping to hear a noticeable difference. I didn't really.. It just sounded worse in fairness, the bass lost a lot of grip and sounded really fluffy at times.. Then tried the chorus (which I'd heard before is bright) and wow.. Really tightened everything up the bass was very noticeable but was kinda laid back sounding too was the most noticeable difference.. I then tried my silver Cambridge one hoping it would be a lot different as people had said the Cyrus cable is bright.. It wasn't.. It prob sounded slightly worse than the Cyrus but hardly noticeable.. Blind tested I def would have failed it.. My friend who has no clue about hifi and I didn't tell him which cable was which noticed the fluffiness of the cobra and noticed the tightness and all round improvement of the chorus.. The rest didnt make much difference to be fair and I've dismissed this as a realistic way for me or the op to change the sound in any useful way.. 

 

Speakers.. The DM 2/7 first and they were kinda nice.. With a budget/midrange system in sure they'd be a good choice. With my setup.. No.. A bit brash and uncultured in my opinion.. They sounded ok tho.. I put my ProAcs on and fell back in love with them.. So fast and precise and bringing out every detail just the way it should be.. My only grip with them is they have quite a small tweeter so it seems they are a little to much at the top end almost hissy on certain tracks but this is due to my amp which is doubling the problem.. The x12's were very nice I think for the price and real wood veneer.. Cute little things can go quite loud but obviously due to there size if drivers the bass issue became more so and had pretty much no bass guitar or drum kick on most track (IMO). I tried the ex dem x36's on a whim really just to see if they'd really be a noticeable improvement.. There wasn't.. They sounded brighter in presentation than my pro acs and you really had to turn it to ear bleeding levels to try and bring the bass out which surprised me.. 

 

So here's the surprise bit.. The parking ticket had expired about 10 mins ago but when I asked if there's another amp I might like for what I'm after he pointed to an ex dem Electrocpaniet Pi 2 which I believe is there pricier entry level amp at £1799 retail.. Hooked it up through the x36's and wow... Sounded so balanced! And natural yet grabbed you and got you involved.. Detailed but not trying too hard.. More bass less ott top end more of the mids I've been after.. Bearing in mind these speakers sounded pretty bad on the end of my amp and now I was enjoying the music.. There is absolutely no doubt that for the sound I want I will need a sub regardless of speaker, but to hear the mids etc so well balanced and just alround sounding more balanced was like a breath of fresh air.. Can't wait to do some more tests with other speakers etc..

 

so to the OP the speakers definatly aren't bass light compared to any speaker over £600 I'd say.. I think if you got a Cambridge audio amp or something meaty it could improve things a lot but essentially you'd be fighting a loosing battle.. I'd get either a budget amp/speaker or actives.. The mid/high end sieakers are too dampened and the bassy sound you and I like is prob caused by bass boom/ mid bloom by cheaper less braced and dampend speakers and budget amps with a more entertaining sound.. I can't live without the lush sound and accuracy snd separation of instruments. I just need some more bass so I'm stickin too high end and add a sub and hopefully I can get this sorted.. Go demo and let us know how you get on. Good luck :rockout:

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

So here's the surprise bit.. The parking ticket had expired about 10 mins ago but when I asked if there's another amp I might like for what I'm after he pointed to an ex dem Electrocpaniet Pi 2 which I believe is there pricier entry level amp at £1799 retail.. Hooked it up through the x36's and wow... Sounded so balanced! And natural yet grabbed you and got you involved.. Detailed but not trying too hard.. More bass less ott top end more of the mids I've been after.. Bearing in mind these speakers sounded pretty bad on the end of my amp and now I was enjoying the music.. There is absolutely no doubt that for the sound I want I will need a sub regardless of speaker, but to hear the mids etc so well balanced and just alround sounding more balanced was like a breath of fresh air.. Can't wait to do some more tests with other speakers etc..

This is exactly why myself and Electro bang on about these amps (ECI-3 is even more organic sounding).....also shows the importance of synergy along with really driving the speaker properly.

Good to get your feedback

Cno

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

So here's the surprise bit.. The parking ticket had expired about 10 mins ago but when I asked if there's another amp I might like for what I'm after he pointed to an ex dem Electrocpaniet Pi 2 which I believe is there pricier entry level amp at £1799 retail.. Hooked it up through the x36's and wow... Sounded so balanced! And natural yet grabbed you and got you involved.. Detailed but not trying too hard.. More bass less ott top end more of the mids I've been after.. Bearing in mind these speakers sounded pretty bad on the end of my amp and now I was enjoying the music.. There is absolutely no doubt that for the sound I want I will need a sub regardless of speaker, but to hear the mids etc so well balanced and just alround sounding more balanced was like a breath of fresh air.. Can't wait to do some more tests with other speakers etc..

This is exactly why myself and Electro bang on about these amps (ECI-3 is even more organic sounding).....also shows the importance of synergy along with really driving the speaker properly.

Good to get your feedback

Cno

Yeah I was very very impressed with it.. Considering I could sell my amp and buy one ex demo and have enough change to buy a sub and decent I/C.. I think at that price it should be on everyone's demo list! I've tried naim, Cyrus, quad, roksan, musical fidelity and feel I may have found 'the one'.. I think I'm going to take my time and continue to demo more although extremely tempting to just get the electro as it could be 'fit and forget'.. At least for a few years.. Ill try a valve pre on my x power for one and some other speakers as the Pro acs def aren't perfect for the sound i want (although very beautifull).. Extensive demoing Is def the way forward.. Maybe in a few years ill dem some class A's :cheers:

 

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

So here's the surprise bit.. The parking ticket had expired about 10 mins ago but when I asked if there's another amp I might like for what I'm after he pointed to an ex dem Electrocpaniet Pi 2 which I believe is there pricier entry level amp at £1799 retail.. Hooked it up through the x36's and wow... Sounded so balanced! And natural yet grabbed you and got you involved.. Detailed but not trying too hard.. More bass less ott top end more of the mids I've been after.. Bearing in mind these speakers sounded pretty bad on the end of my amp and now I was enjoying the music.. There is absolutely no doubt that for the sound I want I will need a sub regardless of speaker, but to hear the mids etc so well balanced and just alround sounding more balanced was like a breath of fresh air.. Can't wait to do some more tests with other speakers etc..

This is exactly why myself and Electro bang on about these amps (ECI-3 is even more organic sounding).....also shows the importance of synergy along with really driving the speaker properly.

Good to get your feedback

Cno

Yeah I was very very impressed with it.. Considering I could sell my amp and buy one ex demo and have enough change to buy a sub and decent I/C.. I think at that price it should be on everyone's demo list! I've tried naim, Cyrus, quad, roksan, musical fidelity and feel I may have found 'the one'.. I think I'm going to take my time and continue to demo more although extremely tempting to just get the electro as it could be 'fit and forget'.. At least for a few years.. Ill try a valve pre on my x power for one and some other speakers as the Pro acs def aren't perfect for the sound i want (although very beautifull).. Extensive demoing Is def the way forward.. Maybe in a few years ill dem some class A's :cheers:

 

 

I could not have put it better myself :cheers:  :grin: Wink

 Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP , Monarchy Audio DIP, Electrocompaniet ECD 1 dac , EC4.8 preamp , 2x AW180 monoblock power amps , PMC PB1i speakers . Thousands of Cd's .

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Any speakers you recommend around £1k mark? You obviously love your PMC'S do the bookshelves at that price match well? I obviously want a big sound punchy and full in the midrange with a not too bright top end and as much bass as possible (but still controlled)

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